Graphics card

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 Post subject: Re: Graphics card
PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 7:43 am 
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BSODs for laptop, out of the blue. can someone recommend me a grown up's PSU for about £50, available in the UK? i need about 5 SATA.

i dont know what else it could be. ive checked the SMART, running RAM at half what it should be, no OC.

i dont care much about rated output, so long as it can cover 300W ish. say 500 rated. must be 12cm fan and efficient as poss for the monies.

please, ty.


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 Post subject: Re: Graphics card
PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 9:19 am 
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Corsairs work well usually..

http://www.corsair.com/power-supply-uni ... upply.html

Or! if thats too expensive ...

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6817371033
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 Post subject: Re: Graphics card
PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:07 am 
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thanks. yeap, i was thinking similar. i was kind of hoping peanut or someone else in the uk would come along and say... there's a special on at secretpricepowersupplies.co.uk, buy this one immediately because there's no other choice. you never know. internets.


ps:
hi suf. good to see you. i am intending to reply to PM. bit lazy so far this morning.


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 Post subject: Re: Graphics card
PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 7:12 pm 
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I only tend to take the time to hunt down the absolute best products and prices for myself, it takes soo much time, usually a good day or so for some stuff, then end up popping to maplin and grabbing an overpriced POS because I spent too long researching and the component went bang :D

You're a little restricted for great efficency and components at that price / rating, but these are the ones I would go for, from the companies that have a decent rep for PSU:

Please bare in mind though, that these guys got their reputation from their higher end products, where they use decent OEMs, but they shouldn't go too crap with their lower end.

http://www.scan.co.uk/products/350w-psu ... an-atx-v23

http://www.scan.co.uk/products/430w-psu ... an-atx-v23

And my personal favorites, Seasonic, who make quite a lot of the decent Corsair PSUs.

http://www.scan.co.uk/products/520w-psu ... et-fan-atx

And here's the 'special' one, top efficiency, no 120mm fan tho, sorry I couldn't perfectly match your requirements here :D

http://www.scan.co.uk/products/400w-psu ... ink%29-atx
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 Post subject: Re: Graphics card
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:18 am 
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ty!

that last one does look lovely. i cant buy that for myself. id have to wrap it and tie it with a ribbon. im out of ribbon.

corsair sounds good. ive been trying to work out the difference between builder series and builder series v2. it looks like v2 is ErP ready and 80+, which i think i want. the trick now is to find one in stock at the right price. i think i want this: http://www.scan.co.uk/products/600w-psu ... an-atx-v23

ive also been trying to work out how corsair's 'gamer series' differ from the builder series, as a matter of interest. apart from the better scores id get in games, it looks like they talk up the specs a little more and add a 140mm glow in the dark fan. i dont want that. the first thing i do with any new power supply (for my own use) is rip out the fan and replace it with something silent. that'd make that difficult.

note on ErP for future reference. i couldnt find a wiki page in english yet, but it says here:

foreign wikipedia wrote:
Empfohlen wird, einen Mindestwert für die Energieeffizienz der Netzteile zu definieren und zwar über den gesamten relevanten Lastbereich einschließlich des Ruhezustandes. Besonders im unteren Lastbereich wurden im Rahmen der Studie schlechte Effizienzwerte bei vielen Netzteilen gefunden. Zudem wird empfohlen, für Standby, Netzwerk-Standby und Quasi-Aus Maximalwerte zu definieren.

which means:

It is recommended to define a minimum value for the energy efficiency of power supplies over the entire load range, including the relevant resting state, especially in the lower load range where poor efficiency values were ​​found in many power supplies in the study. It is also recommended to define quasi maximums for standby and network standby.

*i think i read somewhere else that standby power should be no more than 0.5W. i like the sound of that.

**interesting that they go on to say:

Bei den Monitoren wurde festgestellt, dass die Röhrenmonitore fast völlig vom Markt verschwunden sind und daher auch keiner weiteren Betrachtung mehr bedürfen.

It was found that CRT monitors have almost entirely disappeared from the market and therefore require no further consideration.


***edit: i dont know if there may be a knock-on from 80+ certification becoming the normal. it may be that these tests require more realistc output claims. i mean, if there's a third party testing and measuring.

what im getting at is, that '850W' psu without an 80+ badge, that costs less than the 650W from the same range from the same company.

is it really more efficient? or are they just forced to be a bit more realistic about their output claims. maybe that 650 is the same old '850', only this time, theyre not tacking on 200W if it doesnt completely melt when you push it an extra 30% for a few seconds.

if im right, and average PSU rated output is lower now than it was, due to this, i'll be interested to see if the graphics card companies (Nvidia mainly), alter their 'required' minimum output listings to reflect it, and i wonder what it'll mean for 'SLI ready' badges and the like.


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 Post subject: Re: Graphics card
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2011 1:03 pm 
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Not finished reading your post yet Lappy, but just remember about this link, you might like to have a look.

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/psu ... ,2729.html

It's a little old (the CX series Corsair is not mentioned, or the new AX for that matter), but for info like this, is almost brand new.
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 Post subject: Re: Graphics card
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2011 1:35 pm 
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Laptops Daddy wrote:
that last one does look lovely. i cant buy that for myself. id have to wrap it and tie it with a ribbon. im out of ribbon.

Yea it does, they have a 460W version too that's fanless, although I'd want them mounted in the bottom of a case that has an air inlet under them rather than the top.
They're really for silent HTPCs.


Laptops Daddy wrote:
corsair sounds good. ive been trying to work out the difference between builder series and builder series v2. it looks like v2 is ErP ready and 80+, which i think i want. the trick now is to find one in stock at the right price. i think i want this: http://www.scan.co.uk/products/600w-psu ... an-atx-v23

***edit: i dont know if there may be a knock-on from 80+ certification becoming the normal. it may be that these tests require more realistc output claims. i mean, if there's a third party testing and measuring.

what im getting at is, that '850W' psu without an 80+ badge, that costs less than the 650W from the same range from the same company.

is it really more efficient? or are they just forced to be a bit more realistic about their output claims. maybe that 650 is the same old '850', only this time, theyre not tacking on 200W if it doesnt completely melt when you push it an extra 30% for a few seconds.


The 80+ certification does mean the PSUs have to be tested and proven to run @ certain efficencies at certain loads, however the manufactuer can pick which PSUs from that SKU to have tested. I read quite a few articles on PSUs a while back and the testing that was performed often found that few of them met all the required standards, they'd slip on the low load usually especially @ 110V, where all PSUs are less efficient then 240V (although that's of little interest to you).
The 80+ does add additional costs though, so a non certified 650W could be the same as an 80+ 650W that's not gone through the testing, comes in less flashy packaging and with a crappier fan, eaning it'll cost £20 less, yet the performance of the actual PSU will be the exact same. especially when swapping out the fan (I've done the same before).

Here's a recent one I've not read
http://www.anandtech.com/show/4908/silv ... ar-power/4
and the product price
http://www.scan.co.uk/products/500w-psu ... fan-atx-v2

Laptops Daddy wrote:
if im right, and average PSU rated output is lower now than it was, due to this, i'll be interested to see if the graphics card companies (Nvidia mainly), alter their 'required' minimum output listings to reflect it, and i wonder what it'll mean for 'SLI ready' badges and the like.


I believe the reason graphics card makers specify such high output wattage from PSUs is that there's no standard amount of juice to go out the 12V rail(s), plus the unknown of how much power the rest of the system is outputting.

An older cheaper PSU with a total output of 650W could have only 400W for 12V (33A), whereas a new PSU would likely have more like 600W for the 12V (50A).
They also need to be wary of people overclocking their cards and CPUs, which draws a hell of a lot more power than at stock.
If they only state a 400W PSU and people are running dual Xeon CPUs, 12 fans, internal lighting, watercooling and an NVidia 580, the PSU will pop, even the best 400W PSU. Even tho that 400W could be fine for a 'normal' system with an i5 2500, 3 fans and the cheapest mobo they can find for it.
I think there should be more PSU calculators around, which are themselves, certified.
A PSU calculator
http://www.coolermaster.outervision.com/PSUEngine
Just ran a quick test of it, seems about right (estimated your system Lappy, got 401W rec min power, but it then recommended 4 PSUs that were under 400W :D)


Oh and if you're really after a properly quiet PSU, double ya budget and get a Seasonic X series, the fan doesn't even spin @ <10% load and it's really quiet even at max load.
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 Post subject: Re: Graphics card
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:11 pm 
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nice psu calculator. i like it because i agree with the numbers : )

i expect nvidia have a financial interest in having the manfs adopt their brand/buy their label. i wouldnt be surprised if they inflated their requirement estimations a bit to push consumers into the higher end PSU ranges, partly to ensure quality and protect that label, but as much because the costs are more easily absorbed on a £100 PSU than say a £40 effort where an Nvidia logo would probably amount to quite a large percentage.


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 Post subject: Re: Graphics card
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:55 pm 
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Just had a quick look for total system power graphs on a site I trust:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/5048/evga ... two-gpus/3

From memory, the power figures are from the wall, therefore it's for the total system, GPU(s), CPU, HDD etc...

The numbers may suprise you (although you'll probably come up with something about 2 x 580s is stupid and pointless etc.., such a setup is still popular, whether it's really needed by the user or not).

Please do note tho that no game or even Folding@Home would likely stress graphics sub system as much as Furmark, it's there to properly 'stress' a system to check worst case scenario.
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 Post subject: Re: Graphics card
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2011 6:29 pm 
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i dont know about pointless. stupid probably depends on how much spare monies you have to burn. what'd it be? 2 x £400 + extras to run it and about the same for monitors to make good use of it. something like £1600 more than a run of the mill game-capable PC of the kind most teenagers and probably canadians would hate you for having.

no reason to doubt those numbers. must add, though (or reiterate : ), for others, the top 3 or 4 on that list are already well into high-end territory, and the kind of thing id expect to eat anything off the shelf for < £1,000 for breakfast. eg: http://www.dell.com/uk/p/desktop-deals? ... psed=false

ps:
laptops daddy wrote:
if anything, the requirements should be going down, because people are more conscious of the e (energy, environment, efficiency, etc) and the heat/noise. any more than that 200ish max total, and the components wouldnt be viable/marketable. maybe 350 with triple SLI and an overspec CPU.

^ shows what i know : )

"350 with triple SLI" - that's nonsense

in my defence, it should have been "350 with triple SLI or whateverTF" in the context, but i have learned something here. 350 for dual SLI would have been right, back in the day, taking 120 as the ballpark max for a high-end card. nvidia are now making single GPU cards needing 200+, so I can see how you might show 500 at the wall for SLI these days on a spec some people might actually have, and 350 isnt too much of a stretch for a single card.

i meant to link to these. quite interesting tables:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison ... 500_Series
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison ... .29_series


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 Post subject: Re: Graphics card
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:49 am 
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update on PSU choices

it comes down to a Corsair CX600v2, a Silverstone ST50F-ES, or an Antec VP 550P-GB

there's a lovely review database here: http://www.techpowerup.com/reviewdb/PSUs/

some detailed info on PSU bits and pieces that's pretty much hardcore pron: http://www.techpowerup.com/articles/ove ... /psu/160/1

i couldnt find a review for that exact corsair, but this is close enough: http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Cors ... _V2/8.html
the silverstone: http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Silv ... F-P/8.html
the antec: http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Antec/VP550P/4.html

the antec wins. independent voltage regulation and japanese 105c capacitors, no frills and no nonsense.

im put off by the silverstone's possible dodgy performance at high ambient temps. i want to run it hot and silent. the corsair looks nice, but i found this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8J21tpewmxU. if it did that, it'd drive me insane


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 Post subject: Re: Graphics card
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:53 pm 
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Laptops Daddy wrote:


TDP hints at the power draw, but it can't really be used as a gauge of how much power it's drawing tho.
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 Post subject: Re: Graphics card
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:15 pm 
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PeanutsRevenge wrote:
TDP hints at the power draw, but it can't really be used as a gauge of how much power it's drawing tho.

all true, yeap. in the same way that psu rated output can be used as a hint at what it can provide.

ive paid extra for that odd, special, same cpu but lower TDP model, more than once. it'd be annoying if all theyd done was reprint the label on the exact same thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Graphics card
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:21 pm 
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Laptops Daddy wrote:
PeanutsRevenge wrote:
TDP hints at the power draw, but it can't really be used as a gauge of how much power it's drawing tho.

all true, yeap. in the same way that psu rated output can be used as a hint at what it can provide.

ive paid extra for that odd, special, same cpu but lower TDP model, more than once. it'd be annoying if all theyd done was reprint the label on the exact same thing.


Haha, yea.

I really like the low TDP chips, but damn they're so expensive, but they are pretty much the best chips off the line and overclock like demons with just the normal voltage of their lesser breathren you can get far higher clock speeds.
But they often won't clock to as high a speed as the normal chips because of thermal loads n such, but hey ho.
Best uses are HTPCs and 24/7 low load servers :D
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 Post subject: Re: Graphics card
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:11 pm 
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what's this and do i want one? http://www.scan.co.uk/products/scan-usb ... -1920x1200


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