Forum Replies Created
These are all decent arguments from all different people, there was some hostility between them but compared to recent events it was paradise.Yet there were people who understood things were slipping.
And we let it happen, and we hate each other enough to stop listening.
If anyone thinks this should not stop and refuses to take their responsibility seriously they should be bug-checked.
I do -not- yet see total stagnation in the development process, simply going by the number of version changes. What I do see is a stagnation cycle starting.
I have seen this pattern of “detrimental changes -> players leave -> elitism starts -> admin power-grabs -> more players leaving -> development stagnates -> complaints, suggestions, and constructive criticism made and ignored -> more admin power-grabs -> development virtually stops -> even more players leaving -> game dies” several times in other games. It can happen quite quickly, sometimes in less than a year. It saddens me to see that Scorched also seems to be falling into this pattern. Whenever this pattern starts, it leads to the “more privileged” members of the community making power grabs, becoming (more) narcissistic, driving off players, and in the case of admins, banning other members who won’t kiss their posterior in addition to promoting the ones who do
Another thing I have noticed that is common in the above cycle is hypocrisy. Hypocrisy among “regular” members of any community often causes said members to be shunned by most. Hypocrisy among “privileged” members of any community often leads to many problems, and is never beneficial.
If you’re referring to me, I was simply comparing the cycle I’m seeing here to what I’ve seen elsewhere. However, you make a point in that the “game” and the “forums” are not one and the same – this was not the case elsewhere. Typically, when I see the stagnation cycle to which I referred occur, accounts are shared between the game aspect and the forum aspect. As such, the only aspect that I have seen recently is the forum, so I’m in no position to make predictions on where either is heading. On the other hand, I’ve seen things like this happen here before, and we as a community bounced back, so I’m hoping we can do so again.
Now, for relieving some tension.
*Slaps all present, including myself*
*Proceeds to arm a forty-megaton N2 warhead*
P.S. I gave some advice to a friend the other day, and I think it applies here as well (albeit in a different context): “If you aren’t clear with people, they’ll never know what you’re thinking.” As was stated before, there definitely seems to be a lack of communication – from all parties. “Cool down and say what you think (but avoid being intentionally derogatory)!”
Humans aren’t telepathic by nature, you know.
“Drop what’s in the past, it can’t be undone. Don’t forget it, just drop it as a marker, so you may avoid the same mistakes in the future.” -Me
There is so much damage to the scorched community.
Codding only isnt enough. Far more important are the ppl, the gameplay and how the things are organised.
To summarize, it must remain closed so that development of the game stays separate from the game’s community. When the game’s development being separate from its community is the ultimate problem and the reason for the existence of this thread, and to which you personally agree as being a problem. I hope you can see the paradox in this: problem X can be solved by Y, but we can’t do Y because we must preserve X, which is the problem.
I’ve been involved in a fair share of open source game-related projects, and have contributed to some of them. None of them have developers kept at a distance from the community. In fact, in some of them it’s hard to even draw a line between who is a “developer” and who is a “non-developer”, because almost everyone participates in brainstorming and contributes something, be it code or assets or testing. The more open the development process is, the more people will want to learn the skills to become involved in it. So even if you’re a douche and firmly believe that your own community is too stupid to contribute, an open development process is beneficial, as it fosters the intelligence of the community. Think about it.
There needs to be a hierarchy to the forums indeed to avoid confusion and disorder, which is why the admins and devs are seperate from forum goers
Reality is we dont know what others think. Additional we all look trough filters, what confirms our beliefs we accept what doesnt we reject, conformation bias. On top of that we project our own feelings onto others, we fool ourselves all the time.
So whats true then?
Depends on what reasoning one wants to use, anything can be rationalized.
What i reject is easily seen trough bullshit. Political lies to hurt others. Criticizing without being critical of one self. Such stuff, regardless of political direction. What i am talking about is demagoguery, populism it prevents to see reality as it is by denying facts which are needed for common sense.
What i like to believe is true is based on reasonable assumptions and open debate between people.
Debate is not the stuff on the US news networks, thats a very narrow band of opinion with exactly the right political flavour to suit the interests of those who own it.
Its also not the mantra of an ideology, religion or peculiar philosophy.
So i suppose i dont really have any place where i stand, but i know where i dont want to stand very well.
Great read, you make good points. I really hope this will lead to something good.
I was very active during v40, playing hours per day mainly on rommels apoc champions. After that and some time on the forums i lost hope. Sometime i dont play for months, then i check to see if there are any interesting games going on, usually on merge but they seems to be scarce these days.
This is a great game with potential, how to get it to work needs a really good rethink about what we want it to be. I have my own ideas about what it should be but suggestions i made don’t seem to interest anyone really.
Better communication and some sort of feedback system with the players seems to be key to me.
Edit** I just re-read benders post, and realized i had just suggested what he said wasnt the problem.
Bender, Who are you unhappy with? All i see is people trying to improve the game on gavins behalf, i dont think gavin would allow someone to trash his game.. at least not without his permission (<- aha horrible thought here).
I have seen some questionable deletions of posts lately, and it does sadden me. The whole point of a forum is so people can talk and reason.. its kind of hard to talk when you dont have a voice/post….
The only time posts should be deleted is when they contain spam, or are offensive to those reading them. Offensive is a strict definition here, not an open one, just becase you dont like what they have to say does not mean its offensive.. its critical… and you cannot delete a post for criticallity and not expected to be called out on it.
I ask those deleting the posts to reconsider this, as it is un professional and can eventually lead to them being removed from their honored post of mooderator/admin/whatever allows them to moderate the forums..
talk leads to reason- reason leads to effort- effort leads to change-
If there is no talk resulting in reason there will be no effort for that player to stay, and we will miss out on that players contribution to change.
I posted this thread as a way of trying to find out if there is a solution. Not an attack on you BOY.
I think what kept some of the old veterans around was was this profound loyalty to keeping things the same. This also turned off a few people from staying as well, as they saw that things were more or less stagnant, and lost interest quickly.
I’m fairly sure that the ‘old veterans’ did’nt leave because of the above. I just think the changes made it too much a different game for some. Is there any evidence of anyone leaving beacause they thought it was ‘stagnant’?
When people like me tried to change things and create some havoc and variety, it irritated some of the veterans, like Acid for instance, who stopped playing as much.
I did tell you I quite liked the changes on the admin forum. I stopped playing as much because there was no one to play.
The ultimate killer however, is that new people are not trying the game out. We’re not competing well with the stuff that is out there. Remakes are not where it is at. Where it is at is Xbox, Wii, iPhone apps, or whatever.
I agree. Changes were’nt the problem. Exposure was (IMO)
That is the key problem. The old people moved on, no new ones came.
I’ve checked servers off and on for weeks, never see a game. I love Thrax and his mods are fantastic, I don’t find them challenging personllay, I was always after the sniper types and trying to kill them.
sorry for not being around in recent weeks, however, not too many people miss me now things are so glum.
Stop it man………..I’m going to cry. I would love to see you on here and would take great delight in blowing you up
Although i trust gavin to make the right picks he probably has better things to do, he could pick a management with some authority.
2 neutral and reasonable moderators who have the power to correct other moderators in case there is a controversy if they cant make a decision gavin would have the ultimate say.
this prevents Gavin from being overloaded with trivial stuff and gives an incentive for people to work it out for themselves, and work together instead of sabotaging each other or just plainly bashing others in public.Its unacceptable behaviour for an moderator- the moment that happens you lose the moral high ground and any authority in the eyes of the general public.
its just one way of doing it, there may be better ways.One thing you could do it is look how its done elsewhere.
Looks like a decent example to me if they can have gun banning discussed in a reasonable way like this why cant we? Not because its inevitable, as i showed.
There must be an open discussion possible about anything, but as soon as it turns ugly(this is not when there is an argument one disagrees with) a moderator must correct it, not behave like the person who went wrong.
Altough i havent spent a whole lot of time on the forum there, if you just look at the layout of the forum it suggests a inclusive culture where anyone can contribute.
Here at the moment it doesnt, openly charges without real arguments agains people threats to ban people, doesnt sound very inviting now does it?
Any changes in the way things work around here should take this into account, in my opinion it is key for creating a healthy place where people like to come back to.
When 2 idiots are arguing all the others are still idiots, we all are its human nature. The only way not to do stupid stuff is not to do anything the only way not to sound stupid is not to speak.
Besides humans being idiots they are terrible intelligent.
Intelligence is virtuous if used for good.
Idiocy is stupid when it leads to things we dont want.
I dont know what it is when we use our intelligence for stupid things but i think we can all agree that its something we dont need.
So stop it.Every time i think we start to understand each other someone will escalate it, yes its beautiful the flames getting higher and higher until the roof catches fire and lands on top of us all.
Same to you chopper be responsible and stop escalating this.
I like this better than the one you removed, it was full of suggestive stuff that i would have to address.
Yes i do need my sleep to clear my head, i felt some hope but now its all mixed up again.
Edit: i see it was rommel who removed the posts, please rom stop escalating this. You want to make a point about rmoving posts but it will reflect badly off of you and will only help those who want to kick you out. We need your sense not your impulsive taunting.Put the posts back and ill respond later im too fucking tired for more crap.
Be nice all, or not if you dont feel like it.
I would love to have some tea,with sugar but no milk please.
Onesided and emotional.
Yes i am frustrated and i dont mind showing it.
Maybe if anyone addressed any arguments i make instead pretending there is nothing wrong you could make the one sided argument.
The majority of arguments i hear on this forum seem to be projections of emotions rather than fact and sound reasoning.And one sided from my perspective.
Perhaps you have a solution to these problems, perhaps its just a blindness we all have that cant be solved.
I am looking for something if you want to call it attention fine, but isnt that just an emotional argument devoid of any fact, projection of your own feelings? I believe you just argued against that.
Care to be a bit more explicit ? Especially the threatened part puzzles me, im in a safe enviroment in one of the safest places on earth, good old Baarle-Nassau hardly anything treatening happens here.Perhaps you mean in this discussion, so far i have heard little that impresses me.
I do feel fear that the flaws of the community are incurable and will harm the game even more than it has.Thats my opinion, try to argue why its all good instead of blaming others.
If we turn it into a personal attack fest will it be good for anything?
Yes the critical person is the problem.How predictable.
I have much to say about the flaws of this community but since noone cares or has the guts to listen or the desire to change for the better, lack of self awareness and introspectiveness preventing you all to progress beyond the bullshit and clique politics that has gotten you in this mess.
This was all preventable if you were only capable of reasonable and pragmatic decision making. Instead of caring whats good for the game you blame your problems on the ones that dont fit in.
Criticism is buried in bullshit or just plainly ignored.
Its a sad state to be in, and very disturbing. But hey its not like it is important for more than me and a few people who care.
I was going to give up but i seem to be compulsed to give my reasons for opposing the nonsensical crap that is spewed.
Does anyone care?
The upsetting thing is you rom, not your fault imo.
Too much projection of feelings not enough facts and sound reasoning. But i probably expect too much from people.Everyone has their own limitations.
I wont agitate anymore, whats the use anyway. I have said what i have to say in too many ways already. Its too frustrating to go on with this silly thought of changing things.
Hope your right chopper this place needs more players.
Good luck all. [-o<
Wow the first person to actually address any of my suggestions, or so it feels anyway.
If you like search for any other suggestions im sure there are dozens over the years, mostly ignored.
The problem i experienced was the lack of communication and the lack of inclusiveness, which are a result of another problem i have pointed out several times.
But hey if thats how people want it to be it will be like that.
Futile thoughts i suppose.
I dont think scientific arguments will appeal to science deniers.
I could start a thread with the state of discussion concerning the scientific knowledge of the subject to make that clear and to expose the shortcomings in reasoning.
Sounds like fun, no?