This topic contains 14 replies, has 0 voices, and was last updated by  ArmorWraith 6 years, 11 months ago.

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  • #7455

    NAKED
    Participant

    Wikileaks shows how absolutely absurd U.S. foreign policy is. Sticking their nose in everyone’s business. Manipulating other countries and spying on everyone is par for the course. We all know this goes on, has been going on, will continue to go on. It’s refreshing to see it come to light. Some say wikileaks puts lives at risk. Why? Because it shows how absolutely absurd U.S. foreign policy is?

    Some call Julian Assange a terrorist. Kill the messenger they say. How dare he reveal our dirty tricks they say. This can’t happen again they say. Let’s use this to censor the web, like China, they think.

    Bradley Manning will never see the light of day again.

    I have a quaint idea that transparency of government is a good thing.

    We are still entangled in two illegal wars, shifting troops from one to the other. I had hoped they would have ended by now, both of them. I was naive. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

    There was a march on the White House on the 16th. It was led by Dan Ellsburg. He is part of a group called Veterans for Peace. They marched to protest the war and to show support for Assange. Over 130 were arrested because of their act of civil disobedience and it was, for the most part, ignored
    by the media.

    The best sources for information I have found are guardian.co.uk and democracynow.org.

    Don’t kill the MassangeR.

    But there is good news comrades! Chocolate rations have been increased!

    #62719

    Deathbal
    Participant

    All countries spy on eachother. What Wikileaks has done was make it harder to use diplomacy. That was an unintended consequence.

    Just curious, do you think Bradley Manning should be treated differently?

    I hate to be blunt but Assange is going to end up either dead or in prison for one reason or another. Just look at this site.

    http://www.net-security.org/secworld.php?id=10334

    In the meantime, the Independent reports that US authorities have offered Army Private Bradley Manning – the young Army intelligence analyst that has allegedly delivered the classified government records to WikiLeaks – a plea bargain if he attests that Assange urged him to copy those record and deliver them to the organization.

    Is it really worth it? Is anything going to change?

    #62720

    NAKED
    Participant

    Did Bradley Manning break the law? Yes. Does he deserve what he gets? Legally yes, morally no. He decided to risk life in prison to stand up for what he thought was right. He might be called to do that, half his life at least.

    Will it change anything? No. If the U.S. as a whole doesn’t care, if the U.S as a whole doesn’t elect decent people to office, nothing will change…for the better. Maybe someone like a Kucinich in office with a horde of progressives in congress would help…maybe.

    I would not be surprised if something happened to Assange. That’s all I want to say about that.

    Were all just sitting around the proverbial campfire here… what can one person do?

    I think being aware of what our government is really doing is a good way to make real change. Joining groups like the ACLU or Amnesty International is a good step too.

    Information is the currency of democracy-Jefferson

    #62721

    ArmorWraith
    Participant

    Assange threatens the security of thousands of Americans..

    There is no doubt the government is corrupt, when you have weak leaders who are aspiring to be the secretary general of the U.N… One wonders how such leaks were carried out so easily.

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/nilegardiner/100052454/does-barack-obama-dream-of-becoming-un-secretary-general/

    #62722

    Deathbal
    Participant

    @naked wrote:

    Did Bradley Manning break the law? Yes. Does he deserve what he gets? Legally yes, morally no. He decided to risk life in prison to stand up for what he thought was right. He might be called to do that, half his life at least.

    He is a traitor and deserves life in prison. You cannot be allowed to leak classified information. You cannot be the only country that does not spy, does not use dirty tricks, that does not keep secrets. You won’t last long that way. Morally he is wrong. He weakened his own country.

    @naked wrote:

    Will it change anything? No. If the U.S. as a whole doesn’t care, if the U.S as a whole doesn’t elect decent people to office, nothing will change…for the better. Maybe someone like a Kucinich in office with a horde of progressives in congress would help…maybe.

    A horde of progressives in Congress will not happen in our lifetime. The demographics of this country doesn’t support that. Democrats had a majority in the House, a super majority in the senate, and after two years they were ousted dramatically. And they weren’t all progressives.

    @naked wrote:

    I think being aware of what our government is really doing is a good way to make real change. Joining groups like the ACLU or Amnesty International is a good step too.

    The only problem I have with the ACLU is that they like to do a lot of “cross” hunting. They like to seek out and threaten lawsuits on anyone that has a cross in a public place. Uncalled for.

    Weren’t you the one that actually believed Obama would remove all troops in 16 months? If you listened to him carefully he always stated as long as conditions permitted. So even I can’t call him a liar.

    What he said is no different than what McCain said. He just worded it different to make it sound better. Either way neither candidate was going to remove all troops until it was prudent to do so. And if you listened carefully they both told you as much. McCain was just more overt about it.

    #62723

    NAKED
    Participant

    I had high hopes for Obama. I don’t now. Both wars are illegal and we should pull out all our forces ASAP. Leaving 50,000+ troops in Iraq is not good enough. This is still an occupation. Another surge in Afghanistan won’t help anything.

    The one good thing I can say about Obama is that he hasn’t ordered a drone strike in Iran. If McCain was in office, Iran would be the 53ed state by now.

    Bradley Manning is a tratior, just like Dan Ellsburg is a tratior for releasing the Pentagon Papers. Just like all people, when they see something wrong and try to fight for what’s right, are tratiors.

    Dissent truly is the highest form of patriotism. If dissent means breaking the law and exposing a wrong, so be it.

    #62724

    ArmorWraith
    Participant

    you do argue similar to rommel lol, but youve been here awhile 😛

    #62725

    Deathbal
    Participant

    @naked wrote:

    The one good thing I can say about Obama is that he hasn’t ordered a drone strike in Iran. If McCain was in office, Iran would be the 53ed state by now.

    We’ll have to disagree on this. I do not believe McCain would have done anything different than Obama. The political climate in the US. does not support a strike against Iran. Besides the fact that Iran would be 10 times tougher than the two wars we have going combined.

    @naked wrote:

    Bradley Manning is a tratior, just like Dan Ellsburg is a tratior for releasing the Pentagon Papers. Just like all people, when they see something wrong and try to fight for what’s right, are tratiors. Dissent truly is the highest form of patriotism. If dissent means breaking the law and exposing a wrong, so be it.

    We still have to maintain structure. Follow a guideline within the law. You can’t just have everyone do whatever they want and call them patriots. That’s chaos. Here is a good quote, and it still holds true.

    A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to fear.

    — Marcus Tullius Cicero

    #62726

    NAKED
    Participant

    Dissent in the form of exposing the truth, classified or not, is like disciplining a child. You bring to light misbehavior in the hope that the child will act better in the future.

    Through his actions, Manning basically said: Your attitude sucks. You keep throwing your toys at the other kids and you need a swat. See that one kid over there…you keep hitting him. He never even said anything to you! I’m going to get on the intercom system and tell everyone what your really like. I hope you grow up.

    #62727

    ArmorWraith
    Participant

    sucks for those people who just do their job and follow orders, killed because one guy decided that he was acting in the best interest of the nation. Pretty selfish the way i see it.

    #62728

    Deathbal
    Participant

    I would almost agree if what was exposed sends some people to jail. If what was done was illegal and the truth came out. But you are simply referring to misbehavior.

    Many countries have intelligence agencies, what do you think the CIA does? You think they are squeeky clean? They are not and NEVER will be no matter how much is exposed.

    You used the parent/child example. The problem in this case is that Bradley Manning is the child reprimanding the parent, not the other way around. You don’t do that even if the parent is wrong. And now he will be punished by the parent.

    Lets be realistic, what has Assange accomplished? All he will change is the manner in which secrets are kept secure, not conduct. Has he at least saved any lives with what he has done? No. But he has put a huge target on his back, and not just from the US.

    #62729

    NAKED
    Participant

    He took an oath to defend the U.S. constitution from all enemies foreign and domestic.

    The parent is whoever is the rational one. The parent is on the side of justice regardless of age, rank or status because they know better. They have the responsibility to take action. An example would be a parent with dementia that is being belligerent. The child becomes the parent.

    U.S. foreign policy is belligerent. The rest of the world knows this, has know this for a long time. The news media here does nothing to tell the real story.
    We are always told we are on the side of right, spoon-fed a bunch of crap every time we turn on the TV. And eveyone knows if it’s not on TV it simply didn’t happen.

    Most of the Wikileaks, so far, has been alot of he said she said crap. Not a huge surprise. Hopfully it will change the way other countries do business with U.S. and we with them. The video leak of guys getting blown into red mist is no surprise either. I don’t care about their attitude, that’s the attitude you have to have in war. You can’t see the “enemy” as human. That is how they are trained, remove all empathy, kill and move on.

    What it does show is the larger attitude of the U.S. in not recognising that we were wrong and made a mistake. We refuse to admit fault. We refuse to say “I’m sorry”. That makes us as a country look weak and we can’t have that, can we.

    The video shows the U.S. to be liars compared to the official story. This happens all the time, it should not. They get away with it all the time, they should not.

    We have to rewind back to the start of all of this to understand that every act the military does in Iraq is wrong, it’s murder. The U.S. had no cause to go there in the first place so every one of the how many?…50,000?…100,000?…200,000? people the U.S. has killed is a murder.

    I can’t see a war like a football game where you pick a side and you do what the coach says without question. Why are they blocking sights on military bases
    that have Wikileaks storys? They can’t have armed men see how we treat other countries. They must not allow the left hand to know what the right hand is doing. This leads to dissent. This undermines the “we’re always right”
    policy.

    A snippit from the Huffington Post. The U.S. lies to cover it’s own ass…again.

    #62730

    ArmorWraith
    Participant

    how did they lie? And what were reuters employees doing with insurgents? If they are photographers that puts them into a civil workforce.. hence the death of two civilians..

    #62731

    Deathbal
    Participant

    @naked wrote:

    We have to rewind back to the start of all of this to understand that every act the military does in Iraq is wrong, it’s murder. The U.S. had no cause to go there in the first place so every one of the how many?…50,000?…100,000?…200,000? people the U.S. has killed is a murder.

    This is not entirely true. One of the agreements reached in order to end the gulf war was that Iraq had to follow certain guidlines and resolutions. If they broke any of these the US. reserved the right to resume hostilities.

    I’m not saying that is right or wrong, i’m just pointing out what was agreed upon. And they broke or ignored many of them for over a dozen years.

    #62732

    NAKED
    Participant

    I may sound idealistic or unrealistic but the war makes me go billistic. It’s sadistic and horrific that the American people are so monolithic in being complicit in almost every district.

    This is not said with guile or a smile. Look past the style for a while to what is on trial. Both these damn wars are off by a mile (or a kilometer by Europe’s odometer). It’s vile that most Americans just turn the dial or are in denial as they watch troops march in file and don’t know why many countries think we’re a big pile of bile.

    You might be amused that I have blown a fuse. It’s not the booze or a ruse, I just get the blues when I see on the news that we blew another innocent Iraqi out of their shoes. Who’s going to pay the dues if the family sues? If it happens to them it can happen to you. If one group’s rights unglue it can effect the rest of the crew. Look what happened to the Jews! When something is askew Americans don’t look for clues, they just schmooze at zoos while it’s their rights they lose. If we don’t peruse better views we will be standing in line by the twos begging for stews.

    In my observation I find much frustration in the lack of education and condemnation articulation with no justiculation. My declaration states a sedation coordination of the nation’s population. It’s called demoralization. My insinuation is that this needs no verification.

    Happy Holidays

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