This topic contains 20 replies, has 0 voices, and was last updated by  Bobirov 11 years ago.

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  • #4665

    hobbesme
    Participant

    After I was “(Dead)” in a Scavenger Hunt game, I noticed that my Assists increased by (at least) two — assists from beyond the grave!
    [ 😯 spooky oooooOOOOoooo! 😯 ]

    At the time that I died after losing all lives, I had 13 or 14 assists. In the next few turns though, I noticed that after some of the remaining players scored kills that my assists were now 15! And then when HWB made the final kill to win the game, my assists increased to 16! And each time my assists increased, my score also increased by 2 points per assist.

    I realize the game was trying to award points to the best player even when dead, but I humbly admit the game should remain impartial & award points only to those players who are still alive & making kills. 😉

    So far I have observed this bug only in cbx550f’s Scavenger Hunt mod. Not to say that this bug does NOT exist outside of the Scavenger Hunt mod, but I have NOT yet observed it elsewhere. But I’ll certainly be on the lookout for it! 🙂

    #31821

    NoMoreSteve
    Participant

    To quote CBX:

    #31822

    jdog
    Participant

    I wonder if the game is giving assists for players you damaged from when you where alive.

    #31823

    Ebonite
    Participant

    That’s what it sounds like. You damaged them at some point, so everytime that player dies, you get an assist. Probably assists need to be reset on a player everytime they die. So each new life, assists are counted only for that life.

    #31824

    hobbesme
    Participant

    @jdog wrote:

    I wonder if the game is giving assists for players you damaged from when you where alive.

    @ebonite² wrote:

    That’s what it sounds like. You damaged them at some point, so everytime that player dies, you get an assist. Probably assists need to be reset on a player everytime they die. So each new life, assists are counted only for that life.

    That’s probably exactly it you two. Very smart.

    It’s a little odd that the game keeps track of that in memory beyond the most recent turn. But you’re probably right — which also means that players probably get assists for previous kills whether alive or dead. It was just way more obvious that I was getting wrongful assists when I was dead.

    #31825

    JiNx
    Participant

    yes you are correct ive had it in main and beginers aswell
    if we damage somone and then we die we still get the assist

    #31826

    jdog
    Participant

    @hobbesme wrote:

    @jdog wrote:

    I wonder if the game is giving assists for players you damaged from when you where alive.

    @ebonite² wrote:

    That’s what it sounds like. You damaged them at some point, so everytime that player dies, you get an assist. Probably assists need to be reset on a player everytime they die. So each new life, assists are counted only for that life.

    That’s probably exactly it you two. Very smart.

    It’s a little odd that the game keeps track of that in memory beyond the most recent turn. But you’re probably right — which also means that players probably get assists for previous kills whether alive or dead. It was just way more obvious that I was getting wrongful assists when I was dead.

    The game, most likey, keeps track of your damage done to others per round.

    Is it a bug or is it a feature? Gavin?

    #31827

    imported_gcamp
    Participant

    Thats the way I would expect it to work. If you damage someone during a turn you will get an assist in the remaining turns whether you are dead or not.

    Does this seem like a bad idea?

    #31828

    Bobirov
    Participant

    @gcamp wrote:

    Thats the way I would expect it to work. If you damage someone during a turn you will get an assist in the remaining turns whether you are dead or not.

    Does this seem like a bad idea?

    No, I think it makes perfect sense and is completely fair. 😛

    #31829

    Irishbandit
    Participant

    @gcamp wrote:

    Thats the way I would expect it to work. If you damage someone during a turn you will get an assist in the remaining turns whether you are dead or not.

    Does this seem like a bad idea?

    NO its a good idea at least i think so. 8)

    #31830

    hobbesme
    Participant

    @gcamp wrote:

    Thats the way I would expect it to work. If you damage someone during a turn you will get an assist in the remaining turns whether you are dead or not.
    Does this seem like a bad idea?

    No, that makes NO sense whatsoever.

    In sports, an assist is when you immediately help the very next player to score or make a play :

    It does NOT apply if that score or play action occurs several actions later.

    For instance, if Player A passes to Player B who passes to Player C who then scores; then Player C is credited with a score & Player B is credited with an assist — but Player A receives NO such credit for scoring or assisting since his action was NOT immediately before the score.

    Alternatively, if Player D passes to Player E who misses & the other team recovers the ball; even if Player E gets the ball & scores on the very next play, Player D does NOT receive credit for an assist because he passed the ball to Player E the play before but NOT the play immediately before Player E’s score.

    Therefore when assists for Scorched3D were discussed, I fully expected assists to be awarded ONLY to player(s) that caused damage immediately before another player made a kill.

    Thus, if Player A was napalming Player B while Player C’s rollers came & killed Player B, then Player C would get a kill but Player A would get an assist.

    But if Player A’s napalm did NOT kill Player B but on the NEXT move Player C killed Player B with rollers without any additional damage to Player B by Player A on that move, then Player A would NOT receive credit for an assist since his damage did NOT occur on the move immediately before Player B’s death.

    Thus, assist flags should be cleared after EVERY move. If a player isn’t dead by the end of a move, then you don’t get an assist when they die in a different move unless you damage them again in that move in which they are finally killed.

    On a related note, a player should NOT be credited with assists if that player makes the kill. If a player gets the kill, he should get the kill AND ONLY the kill — not an assist as well. An assist should be awarded only when a player damages another player immediately before that player is killed by some other player.

    In sports, a player is NOT credited with both a score AND an assist :

      “I shoot … I score … I assisted myself!”

    That’s just silly.

    #31831

    Bobirov
    Participant

    First off, as long as we still have the old reward system back in place, I suppose you can do whatever you want to assists in my eyes, I don’t use it as I think the idea is flawed. However, I strongly disagree that assists should be further nerfed. They are already much lamer than the old reward system in my opinion.

    @hobbesme wrote:

    For instance, if Player A passes to Player B who passes to Player C who then scores; then Player C is credited with a score & Player B is credited with an assist — but Player A receives NO such credit for scoring or assisting since his action was NOT immediately before the score.

    I just disagree with your reasoning here. This is not basketball, this is Scorched. If player A damages Player B a bit one turn but then Player C damages Player B the next turn and then Player D kills Player B on the third turn, both Player A and Player C contributed damage towards the kill and should get some credit for it. With the old reward system, they were rewarded money for the damge they did, fine. With the new system, they are rewarded an assist and some money, it makes sense to me.

    If it was how you are talking about, both player A and Player C would get NOTHING, not an assist, not a dollar, nothing. And I think that is just silly and makes it VERY hard for beginners to get anywhere. Sometimes you just have to abandon cold hard logic and think about gameplay.

    Now, the reason I think the assist reward system is flawed from the get go, and I am sure Thrax will agree with me whole-heartedly here, is that the reward for damaging players is severely limited. Particularly in mods like Stone Age, Smallweps, Lasertourney, etc where players do not get an abundance of one shot kills. If a player hits another player 5 times in a row and does 90 damage each time but another player makes the kill, the player who did all the work gets one lousy assist and a meager cash reward which doesn’t come close to compensating him for the effort. Under the old system, he would have been rewarded decently for each hit. This is why I still use the old system and I don’t intend on using the new system.

    Now, that being said, if assists worked like hobbes is suggesting but that was ON TOP of the old system, I would be okay with that. I think its a perfectly cool idea to have an added bonus for assisting in a kill in the current turn. But, if its like it is now and you either use the new system or the old system, I strongly disagree that assists needs to be limited in this way.

    @hobbesme wrote:

    On a related note, a player should NOT be credited with assists if that player makes the kill. If a player gets the kill, he should get the kill AND ONLY the kill — not an assist as well. An assist should be awarded only when a player damages another player immediately before that player is killed by some other player.

    I disagree here, for the same reasons I stated above. What if this player hit the other player for 3 turns in a row before he finally got that kill. I think he should get some credit for that, like he used to. However, the only time I would agree with this is that if the player uses a multi-part weapon (rollers, funky, etc) and one bomb damages the player and then another bomb gets the kill. In that situation, since the kill reward is flat under the new system (not affecting by health), I don’t think he deserves an added bonus just for using a multi-part weapon, that is just rewarding a lack of skill. 😉

    I don’t really want to turn this into a big debate like the resign issue was, but I just had to chime in here and offer up my thinking on the subject and why I think you are wrong to want assists even further limited, as they are already much more limited than the old system ever was.

    #31832

    hobbesme
    Participant

    Bobirov, I both agree & disagree with you.

    I agree that with the new system where money is only awarded if you make kill but points are also awarded for assists that limiting assists they way I suggest makes the game much very frustrating to gain money for one’s efforts.

    However, I disagree with you regarding my analogy to sports & my insistence that assists ONLY apply to any damage done immediately before a kill AND ONLY if another player scores they kill to eliminate receiving credit for both a kill & a self-assist.

    Maybe as a compromise to the new system, assists & points for the assist could be credited to players that cause damage but don’t score a kill AND could also be credited with half the monetary amount of a kill (e.g. $5K).

    Also, players that caused damage to the killed player but NOT in the immediate turn of the kill itself wouldn’t receive assists but could receive 1/4 or 1/5 the monetary amount of a kill (e.g. $2.5K or $2K).

    I know I’m trying to find a balance with the new system, but it makes no sense to credit assists for damage done in previous moves.

    #31833

    Bobirov
    Participant

    @hobbesme wrote:

    I agree that … limiting assists the way I suggest makes the game much very frustrating to gain money for one’s efforts.

    So you agree that what you are suggesting will make the game more frustrating? Now I’m not one for games that are played in carebareland. But, I certainly don’t think that frustration makes for a good all-around gaming experience either. 😛

    Please note that I’m only kidding around here, and don’t mean to offend. 😛

    @hobbesme wrote:

    Maybe as a compromise to the new system, assists & points for the assist could be credited to players that cause damage but don’t score a kill AND could also be credited with half the monetary amount of a kill (e.g. $5K).

    Also, players that caused damage to the killed player but NOT in the immediate turn of the kill itself wouldn’t receive assists but could receive 1/4 or 1/5 the monetary amount of a kill (e.g. $2.5K or $2K).

    That sounds reasonable. The first part is already doable as money can be awarded for assists (not sure if it is on main servers).

    @hobbesme wrote:

    I know I’m trying to find a balance with the new system, but it makes no sense to credit assists for damage done in previous moves.

    As long as the old money per hit system is an option (which it is again in 40.1), I think that you are free to be more restrictive on the assists.

    In fact, thinking on that more, I don’t see why your idea of limiting assists to times when the player is damaged and then killed in the same turn shouldn’t be implemented. Since we are not forced in to relying on assists to reward money to players for damaging targets, I really don’t have a reason to complain about the assists and how they are awarded. My main gripe was with using the assist system to replace the money per hit, and that just is no longer the case.

    Ideally what I would like to see that the new cash reward for assists can be used alongside the old system of awarding cash for hits if the server wants too. That would be perfect alongside your idea for the assist in my opinion. An assist would then be a more rare occurance that could be awarded an additional amount of points and/or money on top of the standard cash reward for damage done.

    You might already be able to use both moneyperassist and moneyperhit at the same time in the development build, I need to check that out at some point. I think you can’t get money for assists if you have money for hit point turned on, but I am not really positive about that. But I think that the more things are configurable, the happier the people running mods/servers will be. 😉

    Anyways though, I guess this means you won the debate. 😛

    #31834

    hobbesme
    Participant

    @bobirov wrote:

    Anyways though, I guess this means you won the debate. 😛

    Naw. You correctly detailed several reasons why the current system of assists should not be deprecated — unless several aspects of the points-money system are changed.

    I’d say you, me, & BOY have each espoused several opinions/options that COULD be implemented if Gavin & other server owners wish to.

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