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  • #55194

    HumanBean
    Participant

    Wow – what a great thread! I’m glad I started reading these forums. There is so much to comment on, but I thought I’d hit the big ones that jump out at me.

    As an economist, I strongly support free trade. One worry I had when Obama was running for president was that the democrats were against NAFTA. How ironic since Clinton, previously a democrat in office, signed it in on January 1, 1994! It just goes to show that in the United States that political parties drive things, and not only George W. Bush is a flip-flopper. Republicans during the last election were running hard for cutting taxes (although both parties want to increase government spending – a deadly combination), but that used to be done by democrats back during Kennedy.

    Anyways, I wanted to comment on something Viking62 said:

    “Obama recently went to Canada to reaffirm the NAFTA trade agreement–FYI, I once was layed off from a company years ago for that agreement being implemented. “Can you mouth the words. . . .unemployment”.

    I think this is an all too common view, but since the press only talks about how trade “destroys” jobs it is hard to imagine how it creates them as well. Imports into a country make producers of a good worse off, but the lower prices make consumers better off. Employment decreases in these industries, and so heavy incentives exist for government to impose tariffs. Domestic producers and government both benefit at the expense of the consumer, but society as a whole is worse off.

    Back in 1994 when Nafta was signed in, the press shortly highlighted that opening trade would result in increased exports, which creates jobs, and makes producers better off. It does, however, result in consumers domestically paying higher prices – this is never spoken about. As a whole, society is better off from exporting as well. Usually the press only talks of trade being “bad” – it is like society needs something to blame for a failing economy.

    The most important thing to realize is that exports BUY imports. If a country takes a mercantilist approach (STILL commonly thought to be good today, but it is horrible) and maximizes exports but minimizes imports, GDP will increase in the short run. This is not a good long term strategy though as seen with the dragon and four tigers (China, Singapore, etc.) By restricting (through quotas, tariffs) imports, jobs in that industry are “protected” – jobs we have a high cost of doing compared to other nations. In the long run, however, we’ll import less, and so our exports must decrease as well (how will other countries buy our goods if we don’t trade their goods/services for ours? They can’t). Countries with more trade restrictions, as well, are found to have lower rates of economic growth (percent change in real GDP over time).

    Wow, I already wrote a lot – so I’ll cut the rest short. There are a lot of conspiracy theories out there; be careful what you listen to. For example, there is this new “Zeitgeist Addendum” movie out there complaining about how the Fed can create money out of “no where,” but a lot of the information in it doesn’t portray what is really going on. It takes the trees, but forgets the larger forest, and the proposes this idea of utopianism which would NEVER work (Now I know how Pom and Mrs. P feel, lol). Human behavior is what it is, has been for as long as we’ve known man has existed, and so we need a good “system” to bring out its best and mitigate its worst. Democracy, as Churchill once said, is the worst system invented, but better than all others before it.

    Second, I don’t think we’re in economic doom just yet. Although the US is responsible for the financial crisis, forcing democracy on other countries, and giving good reason for other countries to hate us (yes, our country is a bully), economies are SO closely tied together that I hope they’ll continue to work together. In fact now, they are. My biggest worry is falling towards socialism (but alas, ever old democracy seems to fall towards such) and letting the government allocate most of our resources. This is certainly worse than where we are now.

    Ok done! 😛

    #55195

    Stil8
    Participant

    @humanbean wrote:

    Wow – what a great thread! I’m glad I started reading these forums. There is so much to comment on, but I thought I’d hit the big ones that jump out at me.

    As an economist, I strongly support free trade. One worry I had when Obama was running for president was that the democrats were against NAFTA. How ironic since Clinton, previously a democrat in office, signed it in on January 1, 1994! It just goes to show that in the United States that political parties drive things, and not only George W. Bush is a flip-flopper. Republicans during the last election were running hard for cutting taxes (although both parties want to increase government spending – a deadly combination), but that used to be done by democrats back during Kennedy.

    Anyways, I wanted to comment on something Viking62 said:

    “Obama recently went to Canada to reaffirm the NAFTA trade agreement–FYI, I once was layed off from a company years ago for that agreement being implemented. “Can you mouth the words. . . .unemployment”.

    I think this is an all too common view, but since the press only talks about how trade “destroys” jobs it is hard to imagine how it creates them as well. Imports into a country make producers of a good worse off, but the lower prices make consumers better off. Employment decreases in these industries, and so heavy incentives exist for government to impose tariffs. Domestic producers and government both benefit at the expense of the consumer, but society as a whole is worse off.

    Back in 1994 when Nafta was signed in, the press shortly highlighted that opening trade would result in increased exports, which creates jobs, and makes producers better off. It does, however, result in consumers domestically paying higher prices – this is never spoken about. As a whole, society is better off from exporting as well. Usually the press only talks of trade being “bad” – it is like society needs something to blame for a failing economy.

    The most important thing to realize is that exports BUY imports. If a country takes a mercantilist approach (STILL commonly thought to be good today, but it is horrible) and maximizes exports but minimizes imports, GDP will increase in the short run. This is not a good long term strategy though as seen with the dragon and four tigers (China, Singapore, etc.) By restricting (through quotas, tariffs) imports, jobs in that industry are “protected” – jobs we have a high cost of doing compared to other nations. In the long run, however, we’ll import less, and so our exports must decrease as well (how will other countries buy our goods if we don’t trade their goods/services for ours? They can’t). Countries with more trade restrictions, as well, are found to have lower rates of economic growth (percent change in real GDP over time).

    Wow, I already wrote a lot – so I’ll cut the rest short. There are a lot of conspiracy theories out there; be careful what you listen to. For example, there is this new “Zeitgeist Addendum” movie out there complaining about how the Fed can create money out of “no where,” but a lot of the information in it doesn’t portray what is really going on. It takes the trees, but forgets the larger forest, and the proposes this idea of utopianism which would NEVER work (Now I know how Pom and Mrs. P feel, lol). Human behavior is what it is, has been for as long as we’ve known man has existed, and so we need a good “system” to bring out its best and mitigate its worst. Democracy, as Churchill once said, is the worst system invented, but better than all others before it.

    Second, I don’t think we’re in economic doom just yet. Although the US is responsible for the financial crisis, forcing democracy on other countries, and giving good reason for other countries to hate us (yes, our country is a bully), economies are SO closely tied together that I hope they’ll continue to work together. In fact now, they are. My biggest worry is falling towards socialism (but alas, ever old democracy seems to fall towards such) and letting the government allocate most of our resources. This is certainly worse than where we are now.

    Ok done! 😛

    Free trade is the worst system ever! It exploits workers and allows globalization. It might bring jobs, but it also brings out the worst in people… There is more corruption, deceit and arrogance in capitalism and free trade than in all the wars in history and pre-history combined.

    I would choose Communist anarchy (anarchy with gift economy), but since it will take very long to mold human nature to cope with power equality, I choose the next best thing: pure, Marxist Communism without any contributions, as it is as good as it will get!

    Worse than where we are now?! What are you talking about? NASA is planning to dive Cassini into Saturn and risk igniting the planet, even though it is very unlikely that anything will happen; Obama, who may either be in league with terrorists such as Bush or Osama, or just doesn’t have enough power to end the war, is sending more men to suicide land; everywhere you turn there is a world domination conspiracy with different ideas; and already the environment is failing to stabilize as our focus on stopping something harmless (global warming) is hindering action against real threats like smog, ozone depletion and deforestation…

    I am not surprised so many WW1, WW2, cold and civil war veterans are suffering from nostalgia; conditions back then sound like paradise compared to what the future holds for humanity if we don’t change our ways…

    #55196

    Viking62
    Participant

    Re: NAFTA & NASCO (These are supposedly secure highway/rail corridors)–All we can do is speculate on the advantages or disadvantages. And why is this being quietly implemented? I have been watching this for a few years now…..a few states have been in constant battles in courts to stop it. **Study the websites;Post your views** -Also remember our heartland/breadbasket last year via flooding & storms;Lost substantial croplands & food production- We (The U.S.A.) have food & grain storage…….I have to wonder….when a shortage is going to rear its ugly face.
    Just a FYI= http://www.farmandranchguide.com/


    http://www.nascocorridor.com/default.asp -(Home Pg.)-
    http://www.nascocorridor.com/faqsdetail.asp?id=2178&pageno= -(What is NASCO?)-
    http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/nafta_gatt/images/nasco_corridor.jpg -(Map)-
    –Other entities–
    http://www.nasco.coop/node/2011 -(North American NASCO students of cooperation)-
    http://www.nasco.org/ -(Will the new cooridor be patrolled by entities like this?)-

    NASCO successfully assisted in lobbying for the creation of two new categories. Under the Transportation Act of the 21st Century (TEA-21) – these new transportation support and funding categories were the National Corridor Planning & Development Program and the Coordinated Border Infrastructure Program.

    SOURCES: American Association of State Highway and Transportation Officials; U.S. Department of Transportation; Federal Highway Administration; and NASCO research…..

    The U.S. is not the only country having problems= http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/15642/4,000-people-a-week-trying-to-leave-UK

    Just more food for thought….. A big 😉 @ HumanBean

    #55197

    HumanBean
    Participant

    @Stil^^8 wrote:

    Free trade is the worst system ever! It exploits workers and allows globalization. It might bring jobs, but it also brings out the worst in people… There is more corruption, deceit and arrogance in capitalism and free trade than in all the wars in history and pre-history combined.

    I would choose Communist anarchy (anarchy with gift economy), but since it will take very long to mold human nature to cope with power equality, I choose the next best thing: pure, Marxist Communism without any contributions, as it is as good as it will get!

    Oh no you didn’t. 😀 Wait, now. How can we mold human nature? It hasn’t changed since the beginning of man. Man has always been self-interested (some call this greed). Even income disparity to some extent (unlike communism) is efficient (and therefore good in my opinion) because incentive is created for lower income individuals to keep up with the Jones. Man will always respond to incentives that betters himself, and a system that provides these incentives (markets) but mitigates external costs (murder, theft, etc. through a well structure court system and police) has historically done the best. Even the poorest today are better off than the poorest years ago (yes, markets are a tide that raises ALL ships). Communism just doesn’t provide these incentives. I’m not saying a democratic-republic political structure is the best thing to promote this, but it certainly has surpassed other forms of government for all mankind.

    In an anarchist-communist structure, where is the incentive for individuals to work if they are freely “gifted” necessities or wants? Free-riding behavior (obtaining the benefit without incurring the cost) just won’t allow for this. That’s why some government (not as much as we have) is needed to provide public goods (ones where free-riding would cause a market to fail in allocating them) like parks, national defense, libraries, etc.

    @Stil^^8 wrote:

    Worse than where we are now?! What are you talking about? NASA is planning to dive Cassini into Saturn and risk igniting the planet, even though it is very unlikely that anything will happen; Obama, who may either be in league with terrorists such as Bush or Osama, or just doesn’t have enough power to end…

    Wouldn’t much of this occur anyway under an anarchist-communist regime? What about the nuclear arms race with the USSR? Both the USSR and the US were guilty of this. What about the development of jet technology with Hitler and the experimentation on Jews and POWs? These things happen anyway. I haven’t read any compelling evidence that Obama is linked terrorits or Osama, btw. There are a lot of conspiracy theories out there… and like most conspiracy theories, they’re false.

    @Stil^^8 wrote:

    I am not surprised so many WW1, WW2, cold and civil war veterans are suffering from nostalgia; conditions back then sound like paradise compared to what the future holds for humanity if we don’t change our ways…

    [/quote]

    Everyone who becomes nostalgic as they get older – go to a nursing home and you’ll hear those who fought in WWII recall the good old days of shooting Germans or Japanese down, etc. Age naturally makes us forget or mitigate the bad and miss the good. I think psychologically it is normal as when we become older we have less things to look ahead to, so look a the future like sour grapes and more optimistically view the past. I’m not a psychologist though – so I could be wrong. 😉

    #55198

    Stil8
    Participant

    @humanbean wrote:

    Oh no you didn’t. 😀 Wait, now. How can we mold human nature? It hasn’t changed since the beginning of man. Man has always been self-interested (some call this greed). Even income disparity to some extent (unlike communism) is efficient (and therefore good in my opinion) because incentive is created for lower income individuals to keep up with the Jones. Man will always respond to incentives that betters himself, and a system that provides these incentives (markets) but mitigates external costs (murder, theft, etc. through a well structure court system and police) has historically done the best. Even the poorest today are better off than the poorest years ago (yes, markets are a tide that raises ALL ships). Communism just doesn’t provide these incentives. I’m not saying a democratic-republic political structure is the best thing to promote this, but it certainly has surpassed other forms of government for all mankind.

    Human nature has gone through some big changes since the beginning:
    We have gone from hunting mammoths and living in caves in the stone age to crucifying each other in the biblical ages and to exploring the secrets of the universe in modern ages… To me those are big changes in human nature…

    Technically all that man needs to survive is food, water, shelter, heat, entertainment and health care… These can all be obtained in any system…
    Anything else is just seeking perfection, and any path that seems to lead to perfection actually leads to death… So if the required needs can be obtained in any system, then I would seek the best one possible…which is definitely not capitalism and free market.

    There is no such thing as wants, everything we think we want is just part of our needs.

    Anarchy means power equality for all human beings… Let’s say a small group of people wanted to build a nuclear bomb. If there are more protesters than there are supporters of this, then the protesters win and the weapon is not built.
    However, since power equality is very hard to cope with, due to the almost unchangeable aspect of our nature to seek power, it is very likely that those supporters will start a war…

    That is why anarchy is almost impossible for humans, but it is the best possible system if we are able to change our ways… Next best system is Marxism, then socialism, then USSR communism, then Feudalism, and then Capitalism at the end below systems like Knowledge Economy and Participatory economy

    #55199

    HumanBean
    Participant

    @Stil^^8 wrote:

    Human nature has gone through some big changes since the beginning:
    We have gone from hunting mammoths and living in caves in the stone age to crucifying each other in the biblical ages and to exploring the secrets of the universe in modern ages… To me those are big changes in human nature…

    I don’t see those as changes in human nature; I see those as changes in our ability to control resources around us. For example, early man hunted mammoths because it was the lowest cost way to eat – knowledge of agriculture was not available then. Rape still occurred, though, as it does now. Theft also did. The same throughout biblical ages and now. The only difference is that individuals have more power than before to impose costs on others. The cave man had to use a stick, but now a high-school student can acquire a machine gun and take out hundreds. THIS is what truly scares me – including governments incentives to obtain/acquire information (posted something on this in a separate topic). The arms race really opened our eyes to this problem… and, sadly, I know little of how to fix it. Technology, as anything, can be used for creation or destruction – but human nature has consistently done both.

    @Stil^^8 wrote:

    Technically all that man needs to survive is food, water, shelter, heat, entertainment and health care… These can all be obtained in any system…
    Anything else is just seeking perfection, and any path that seems to lead to perfection actually leads to death… So if the required needs can be obtained in any system, then I would seek the best one possible…which is definitely not capitalism and free market.

    There is no such thing as wants, everything we think we want is just part of our needs.

    Need is a commonly misused term. Ironically, most economists don’t like to use it. A need to us is just a “want” that would bring someone a high amount of happiness. Strange how different fields think, eh?

    I am not a capitalist, but I do believe in free markets for the most part. You are correct in that free markets do not ALWAYS work, but most of the time they work very well. They work well under a certain set of conditions (I can list these if you want). Saying free markets never work, though, would be similar to saying that the Pope never shits because he’s holy.

    @Stil^^8 wrote:

    Anarchy means power equality for all human beings… Let’s say a small group of people wanted to build a nuclear bomb. If there are more protesters than there are supporters of this, then the protesters win and the weapon is not built.
    However, since power equality is very hard to cope with, due to the almost unchangeable aspect of our nature to seek power, it is very likely that those supporters will start a war…

    That is why anarchy is almost impossible for humans, but it is the best possible system if we are able to change our ways… Next best system is Marxism, then socialism, then USSR communism, then Feudalism, and then Capitalism at the end below systems like Knowledge Economy and Participatory economy

    [/quote]

    You have really interesting views. I think power equality isn’t necessarily a bad thing myself. After all, this is initially how our (USA) system was set up politically. Each human is equal, indeed, and has inalienable rights. However, that doesn’t mean we’re all the same in our abilities, who is better at doing what job, etc. I think these two things are commonly confused in today’s world. Our founding fathers were genius in setting up a government with 3 branches which balanced power, and setting up a constitution. Some things since then have changed, and duly so.

    If worse comes to worse, we will be back in a system of pure anarchy (post-apocalypse world, like Mad Max). I hope that never happens. I think nature, in its course, requires it happen though. I just hope I don’t live through the worst part of it. 😀

    I had a student once write a very interesting paper (all ideas, and very abstract thinking) about how government changes as humans work their way through Maslow’s hierarchy. When humans satisfy the lowest left (food), they then want to satisfy safety, so they build communities and small systems of police. From there, it works up… but no government (in my opinion) can allow all its citizens to experience self-actualization. Definitely an interesting paper.

    #55200

    Viking62
    Participant

    Yep-This is the answer to a crashing economy & forthcoming food shortages. . . . . . . . Take the Honest peoples only means of protecting themselves away & make the honest people pay for not falling in line with tyranny. They are picking a great time to try & slide this through legislation. At a time where states cannot even afford law enforcement officers to protect us from criminals……Doh. . . . This is exactly what I’d do if I were scamming a whole country out of Billions of $$. 😉
    **Another attempt at disarming Honest/Patriotic American citizens** Google H.R. 45
    http://www.washingtonwatch.com/bills/show/111_HR_45.html

    #55201

    Deathbal
    Participant

    I watched the entire 2 and a half hour video. Some of the stuff I already seen, like Zeigiest. I also plan on looking at some of the stuff Bazzz put up. So thanks to both Boy and Bazzz for the links. They are very interesting.

    The one pattern I have noticed is the ever increasing control our government (USA) has had on our people over the last 3 decades. They use baby steps to achieve their goal.

    For example. If you were to try and pass a law in 1978 that you could not smoke cigarettes legally, you’d be beaten and thrown into the river. But now we have come to the point where it is possible. Laws have been passed, no smoking in bars, no smoking with a child in your car, ect…. All in the name of health. Now, when you ask a person on the street what they think about the law, what do they say? They usually mention they like the law because now their cloths don’t smell like smoke. Or they are tired of the bad smell. That’s not a reason to pass a law. These same people shake their fist at the Patriot Act. Too late. And smoking is just one of many examples.

    Lets all be perfectly honest. A non smoker may not know this, but a smoker does. Anyone that smokes for about 2-4 years knows it is damaging their health. They do not need anyone to tell them. It can’t be any clearer without dropping dead.

    Second hand smoke is another story altogether. It is the farce that allows the laws. Our freedoms are taken away every day under the “health/safty” excuse. The Patriot Act included. You CANNOT pick and choose which ones you like. Once you allow the government to start controlling your day to day life, you’re in for the ride.

    GLOBAL CLIMATE CHANGE

    Of course I believe there is GCC occuring, i’m just not sure what the primary cause of it is. If the primary cause is not humans, then all the carbon tax in the world is not going to change anything. And our government drools over any tax. A carbon tax would be perfect. It could be in place forever, with no real way of disproving it. But with many ways to tax it.

    Two examples of government hypocrisy here in the states.

    1. In the state of New Jersey you cannot legally smoke in any public or private establishment. However, you are allowed to smoke in the casinos.

    2. I think it’s Oregon, I could be wrong. They have a 27 cents gas tax. Many people are driving less, using mass transit and buying more fuel efficient cars and costing the state much needed revenue. Now the state wants to put a tax on miles driven. Of course all in the name of “Climate control”.

    The above is not my opinion. It is what the state official actually said. They are losing revenue. This is why I am starting to despise my government. It is also why I am now more open to videos and or outside info.

    #55202

    Stil8
    Participant

    @deathbal wrote:

    I watched the entire 2 and a half hour video. Some of the stuff I already seen, like Zeigiest. I also plan on looking at some of the stuff Bazzz put up. So thanks to both Boy and Bazzz for the links. They are very interesting.

    The one pattern I have noticed is the ever increasing control our government (USA) has had on our people over the last 3 decades. They use baby steps to achieve their goal.

    For example. If you were to try and pass a law in 1978 that you could not smoke cigarettes legally, you’d be beaten and thrown into the river. But now we have come to the point where it is possible. Laws have been passed, no smoking in bars, no smoking with a child in your car, ect…. All in the name of health. Now, when you ask a person on the street what they think about the law, what do they say? They usually mention they like the law because now their cloths don’t smell like smoke. Or they are tired of the bad smell. That’s not a reason to pass a law. These same people shake their fist at the Patriot Act. Too late. And smoking is just one of many examples.

    Lets all be perfectly honest. A non smoker may not know this, but a smoker does. Anyone that smokes for about 2-4 years knows it is damaging their health. They do not need anyone to tell them. It can’t be any clearer without dropping dead.

    Second hand smoke is another story altogether. It is the farce that allows the laws. Our freedoms are taken away every day under the “health/safty” excuse. The Patriot Act included. You CANNOT pick and choose which ones you like. Once you allow the government to start controlling your day to day life, you’re in for the ride.

    GLOBAL CLIMATE CHANGE

    Of course I believe there is GCC occuring, i’m just not sure what the primary cause of it is. If the primary cause is not humans, then all the carbon tax in the world is not going to change anything. And our government drools over any tax. A carbon tax would be perfect. It could be in place forever, with no real way of disproving it. But with many ways to tax it.

    Two examples of government hypocrisy here in the states.

    1. In the state of New Jersey you cannot legally smoke in any public or private establishment. However, you are allowed to smoke in the casinos.

    2. I think it’s Oregon, I could be wrong. They have a 27 cents gas tax. Many people are driving less, using mass transit and buying more fuel efficient cars and costing the state much needed revenue. Now the state wants to put a tax on miles driven. Of course all in the name of “Climate control”.

    The above is not my opinion. It is what the state official actually said. They are losing revenue. This is why I am starting to despise my government. It is also why I am now more open to videos and or outside info.

    Well that is really what right-wing politics is supposed to do… Why do you think the Hitler salute was done with the right arm? Me and the rest of the ‘loony left’ can clearly see through the lies of the fascist freaks on the right! Not that left-wing politicians are better in honesty, but at least they support the right stuff…

    #55204

    HumanBean
    Participant

    Viking – Yes, a lot of anti-gun regulation has been passed through congress and more follows. I don’t have a problem with licensing who purchases what firewarm, but I do have a problem with the complete restriction of firearms. I don’t think complete restriction will go through under Obama’s term, though. Hopefully we won’t end up like Austraila though on this respect!
    Ashes – Anti-smoking laws are a great example. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_smoking_bans_in_the_United_States has a great history of states/counties passing these laws, and they’re an abomination. An owner of an establishment should have the right to run it how he pleases. This is why years ago we saw bars allowed for smoking, restaurants either banned it or had smoking sections, and publically run establishments banned it. Bars maximize profits, and to do so they competitively aim to please the majority of clientele. Private rights, in this case, have been taken away. The whole idea is founded that smokers bear a cost on others with second hand smoke, but the key is others have the option to either visit or not visit an establishment. If you don’t like the food, eat/drink elsewhere. If you don’t like the smoke, you have the choice to do the same. I’m not sure the reasoning behind this health-craze. It’s also shown up in that damned Super-Size me movie where McDonald’s lost so much brand name it removed Super-Size from their menu. Too bad they couldn’t sew the pants off that fool.
    Our country has definitely moved away from libertarian ideals it was founded on (not the libertarian party, they’re crazy as a whole). Moral rules that existed at the start of our country have deteriorated over time (the right to pursue life, liberty and happiness; do unto others as you’d have you would have them do unto you; your right to swing stops at my nose; etc.). This started long ago, though – recall the bootleggers with prohibition? Eventually the government grows bigger, does take our rights away, and with time will collapse. I just hope it doesn’t happen in my lifetime; I wouldn’t want to live through that chaos! I thought the constitution would last longer.
    Don’t get me wrong; I love my country… at least what it was founded on. I don’t think communism or socialism is an answer; I do think “democrazy” is the better option, but a better one lies out there. It is hard to know what is real/not real with all the propaganda – with a right wing FOX news show there will be a crazy left wing movie like Zeitgeist Addendum that puts together random facts and also skews them. To be heard, though, you have to be somewhat extremist in our country; nobody wants to listen to sound logic. 😀 I guess people just always need to see change.
    Stil^^8 – Lol, I don’t think you’re left-wing. You sound more right-wing to me. But left-right-wing have really changed over the years. I mean, the democrats here were for free trade 15 years ago, but now they’re completely against it? Republicans are for corporate tax cuts now, but democrats were years ago? I think left and right-wing don’t mean anything as terms anymore. I used to think I was left-wing years ago, but now I realize I have neither, and I’m stuck on this earth. 😀

    #55205

    Deathbal
    Participant

    The USA is supposed to be a Constitutional Republic, not a Democracy. Otherwise, I agree with your entire post, Human. I could not have said it better myself.

    The left likes to expand government. The right likes small government. So what’s Bush’s excuse? I can’t tell you why he expanded government the way he did.

    But the bigger problem is when the government does expand. Especially when it expands to the point where people are dependent, it is almost impossible to take it back.

    So over the next 4 years you will see an expansion of government. More laws on top of more regulations on top of more restrictions. So even if a conservative is eventually elected, he will not be able to undue government dependence.

    To me, the left has become the party of entitlement. I believe no one is entitled to anything beyond their rights.

    The right wing party, I could not tell you what they are right now. At the moment they do not appear to have the slightest clue.

    #55206

    Stil8
    Participant

    @deathbal wrote:

    The USA is supposed to be a Constitutional Republic, not a Democracy. Otherwise, I agree with your entire post, Human. I could not have said it better myself.

    The left likes to expand government. The right likes small government. So what’s Bush’s excuse? I can’t tell you why he expanded government the way he did.

    But the bigger problem is when the government does expand. Especially when it expands to the point where people are dependent, it is almost impossible to take it back.

    So over the next 4 years you will see an expansion of government. More laws on top of more regulations on top of more restrictions. So even if a conservative is eventually elected, he will not be able to undue government dependence.

    To me, the left has become the party of entitlement. I believe no one is entitled to anything beyond their rights.

    The right wing party, I could not tell you what they are right now. At the moment they do not appear to have the slightest clue.

    Are you all living in the early 1700s? Back then Left wing was capitalism and government, and right wing was communism, anarchy, egalitarianism…
    since the french revolution they switched and the left are egalitarianism and equality and the right are fascism, capitalism and survival of the fittest…

    I completely support socialism and absolute egalitarianism (Marxism) and oppose globalization and free market and fascism… So I am a left wing guy!

    #55203

    Deathbal
    Participant

    The US. is not a totally capitalist society. We all know that and it’s flaws. But if given the choice, I would prefer total capitalism, like in the medieval period over pure Marxism. I do not like the thought of the government controlling every aspect of my life. But that is just a matter of opinion. To each his own.

    #55207

    Stil8
    Participant

    @deathbal wrote:

    The US. is not a totally capitalist society. We all know that and it’s flaws. But if given the choice, I would prefer total capitalism, like in the medieval period over pure Marxism. I do not like the thought of the government controlling every aspect of my life. But that is just a matter of opinion. To each his own.

    Capitalism relieves control of the economy only… A country can have laissez-faire capitalism and still control every other aspect of a person’s life…

    Same with communism: the economy is controlled by the gov’t, but it doesn’t mean that everything has to be.

    Total capitalism=fascism… They really are the same thing. Don’t be deceived by Nazi germany and Fascist italy… Mussolini and Hitler were just crazy, not fascist; or maybe just hiding behind fascism like Stalin did with communism and bush with democracy…

    #55208

    BOY
    Participant

    we’ve gotten down to debate of basic human nature – excellent! 😀

    Well, as I examine the conspiracies like REX 84 FEMA camps, Skull and Bones Society, NWO, JFK, 9/11, RFID, CODEX ALIMENTARIUS, HAARP, Lucifer Project, UFOs, Human organ harvesting and abductions, CFR, Bilderburg group, World Bank, Masons, Global Warming, mind control…. and others, I am reminded that I have faith in my Salvation through Christ Jesus. The gates of hell will not prevail….

    Nevermind, Marxism and Capitalism will both take a back seat to a world king that will set up an eternal kingdom here on earth. Yes, Jesus was a real, perfect, man who was born of a virgin, (no, not on Dec 25 like Zeitgeist says… sigh) then lived, preached, and died. This kingdom will resemble the kingdom of Solomon (but without the pagan wives) 😉

    Whether it happens in the next 5 years or 100 years is of no consequence, it will happen. Bring on the Apocalypse! I promise it will be really amazing when the demon locusts come up from the pit of hell.

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