This topic contains 71 replies, has 0 voices, and was last updated by  xtc 3 years, 3 months ago.

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  • #66082

    Chopper
    Participant

    Who started this #$@&…oh NM….I hate politics. [-X
    We’re friends for God’s sake.

    #66083

    Laptops Daddy
    Participant

    Even if you looked at it this way, what response did you expect?

    i don’t think there was a response as such. we all seem to agree that iraq had nothing to do with 9/11?

    no, i don’t think invading iraq or afghanistan was a response so much as exposure for the world of why some people might have been harbouring hatred towards the US. i don’t know if i’d try to make any direct connection, though, really, in that i wouldn’t suggest that exposure was an intended consequence. though if i did, i guess that could imply state inside knowledge of some sort, espionage? i don’t know enough about it to guess.

    Remember that each person will recount a situation relative to their home and heart, not a single person is ever immune to that.

    i think those are some wise words. the events were used as a propaganda tool. ie, the public outrage was steered in the direction of iraq which allowed for the funding or the go-ahead for an invasion that was already on the table.

    *invasion is a strong word. it was an invasion.

    anyway, unfortunately the same media impression was probably just as damaging to the US reputation when seen from outside of the US bubble. propaganda either way. we all know what that means, but i guess it doesn’t hurt to link to a wiki page if i’m going to throw that word around http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda

    I don’t know what Afghanistan had to do with the attack or the aftermath.

    i don’t know either. nothing at all perhaps?

    again, propaganda. the screen or impression given to the general public probably doesn’t alter the real issues any government or military force face by the time they sit down and try to work out what’s up.

    you know, by the time they (‘they’ being a government’s employees, i guess – the machinery rather than the public faces) get to the ‘no, look.’ and ‘this is the real problem’, etc, public opinion is just a tool for funding.

    the official line any pres or political figure chooses to publicise probably has no other purpose than to influence public opinion. that’s a politicians job.

    After an attack like that the last thing any President was going to do is find and put a man on trial. Every politician in the USA would have lost his job.

    after the attacks on iraq and afghanistan do you mean?

    i know you meant 9/11.

    maybe. i guess they couldn’t risk giving bin laden or any of the perpetrators a fair trial – the events had already been linked in the media to iraq, afghanistan and so on. real legal scrutiny might have brought the whole system into question, especially if there were documented conclusions that the wars were unrelated.

    there seems to be a growing consensus that neither war had anything to do with 9/11 either way. both wars, i guess any war is more complicated than a trial of individuals.

    There is no reason a hot topic cannot be discussed.

    i agree. very sensitive topics though. we mustn’t let it turn into a fight.

    #66084

    Deathbal
    Participant

    @laptops Daddy wrote:

    i don’t think there was a response as such. we all seem to agree that iraq had nothing to do with 9/11?

    Of course not. Anyone paying attention knows that.

    I don’t know what Afghanistan had to do with the attack or the aftermath.

    i don’t know either. nothing at all perhaps?

    The official line handed down was that Afghanistan harbored those responsible and “may” have had a role in its planning.

    After an attack like that the last thing any President was going to do is find and put a man on trial. Every politician in the USA would have lost his job.

    after the attacks on iraq and afghanistan do you mean?

    i know you meant 9/11.

    maybe. i guess they couldn’t risk giving bin laden or any of the perpetrators a fair trial – the events had already been linked in the media to iraq, afghanistan and so on. real legal scrutiny might have brought the whole system into question, especially if there were documented conclusions that the wars were unrelated.

    there seems to be a growing consensus that neither war had anything to do with 9/11 either way. both wars, i guess any war is more complicated than a trial of individuals.

    I can tell you right now the American people wanted blood after 9/11. A trial was never an option. You saw the way Bin Laden was dealt with? We never had any intention of putting him on trial. Afghanistan was the obvious target. They supposedly harbored him and trained others that were like minded. I think the idea was to answer the attack with an overwhelming response so as to deter future incidents. Something a trial sorely lacks.

    As far as Iraq goes, the official line (or one of them at least) was that he had WMD and could pass them off creating more 9/11s. Talk of ridding Iraq of chem. weapons goes back to 1998 when Clinton was President. That gave us the excuse to resume hostilities. That and resolutions passed after the gulf war. Keep in mind we reserved the right to resume hostilities if Saddam did not abide by them. He did not. But still, that doesn’t mean we should have gone into Iraq.

    Let me say one more thing even though I have said too much already. I feel like Rommel.

    I did notice the subtle shift in the reasons for going to war with Iraq. I am not an idiot, it wasn’t lost on me. First it was all about WMD. From there it went to freeing the people to stopping the rape rooms to a better life for women to spreading democracy to we didn’t want Saddam there anyway. All over a period of time so as to not take the blame for something that they may or may not have known existed in the first place. It was quite clever.

    There is no reason a hot topic cannot be discussed.

    i agree. very sensitive topics though. we mustn’t let it turn into a fight.[/quote]

    It won’t turn into a fight with me. It only turns into a fight with people that think they know everything. Some things become more clear after time.

    #66085

    Rommel
    Participant

    “Is it safe ?” – Der Weisse Engel

    Hi All :

    It’s good to see an active discussion underway
    even though I am keeping my back to the door.

    There is a post here someplace, XTC’s thread
    maybe, where I complimented Peanuts Revenge
    for making a convincing and thought out post
    concerning the need for better order. His posts
    here, although a little over the top, are certainly
    understandable from where I am sitting.

    The realization that those we consider intelligent
    expect things to improve on their own, is quite
    maddening to those that see obvious problems.

    Say what you will about what Peanuts Revenge
    had to say, but the only faults I could find with
    his posts were his tone and his choice of words.

    His ideas were pure genius. None of the above !

    Surely the rantings of a single impassioned poster
    aren’t grounds to lock a thread. Even if the author
    is the one in question, the others should not be
    punished. Further, perhaps the author of a thread
    should have a little freedom to be offensive if they
    think it will be beneficial to their reason for posting.

    Only the moderator(s), are required to read the off
    topic posts. Authors that are deemed over the top
    can easily be avoided by those that detest them.

    Everyone here knows that Peanuts Revenge doesn’t
    usually post with such feroricity without mentioning
    Rommel. His series of rapid fire posts here was both
    surprising and flattering. If he was still posting, I
    might accuse him of plaugerisim but instead, in his
    absence, I rise not only in his defense but in the
    defense of every unseen reader of these forums.

    There was one thing … it seems that’s always the
    case. We aren’t killing for the oil, were’re killing for
    the profits. The world price for oil was ( please
    check these statements ) around $35 per barrel
    before 9/11. The refinery ready cost is lower
    now and the supply has increased substancially.

    Without wars and the threats of war, the profits
    of the oil companies would be less than stellar.

    Hopefully Peanuts Revenge will make a
    better presentation of his material soon.

    Best Wishes to All,

    Rommel

    P.S. Excerpted from Wiki-Pedia :

    A low point was reached in January 1999 of US $ 17 per barrel,
    after increased oil production from Iraq coincided with the
    Asian Financial Crisis, which reduced demand. Prices then
    increased rapidly, more than doubling by September 2000 to
    $ 35, then fell until the end of 2001 before steadily increasing,
    reaching $ 40–50 by September 2004.

    P.P.S. The planned bombing of the fully loaded oil
    tanker, mentioned in yesterday’s Quote of the Day,
    was averted after it surrendered to Libya’s navy.

    #66086

    ArmorWraith
    Participant

    @rommel wrote:

    Only the moderator(s), are required to read the off
    topic posts. Authors that are deemed over the top
    can easily be avoided by those that detest them.

    Would like to remind you why my name is in blue. (aside from the fact Lappy has the ability to customize).

    Not only do I agree largely with the what has been said, I would be an idiot if I did not account for the tone of the text. Whereas valid points have been made, I would encourage everyone to avoid becoming a detestable, and to self-censor for swearing. We still do have the occasional young one in these forums. Furthermore, civilized discussion generally hinges in the concise and respectful exchange of ideas. Do not do something because Rommel says it is okay. That is the last thing I would encourage you to do.

    My view on this topic is multi-faceted. Do I believe there are financial interests, of course. Do I believe everything the media puts on tv? No. Do I believe importing foreign oil is the right course for Americans, no. We should be drilling and manufacturing our own oil and goods, because it gives politicians less cause to intervene or muddle in the affairs of others. There is no such thing as a good war, there is only war, fought by good men. Do I think this was a necessary war? Yes, but only for those responsible. Do I also think it is an endless endeavor, yes.

    Either way it does not really matter, its all history at this point. When those planes hit the towers, you could feel the blood lust in the air. We were going to war, whether the president agreed or not. Welcome to just one of the problems with a political government controlled by the people.

    I may not have the institutional memory that some people have in this thread, but from the way I see it, politicians are less interested in good these days, and more interested in goods. Be they financial or fame.

    If you think the current course of events in America is a good direction, you are insane. We have a president engaging in domestic tinkering, foreign wars costing us billions, debt up to our eyeballs, and every day people demanding more and more from those who have less and less. We are floating ladies and gentlemen, the sacrifices necessary to correct the wrongs we have perpetrated are not going to be made by future generations. They are used to the status quo, and will continue to stick their fingers in their ears to avoid reality, all the while asking for more more more.

    It is a cycle you see, repeated time and again. We get cozy, we get complacent, and we start to encroach on what was never really ours to begin with. Every political science teacher will try to tell you that right and left are a continuum, a straight line with either extreme being undesirable. On the left we have communism, and on the right we have fascism. This is a falsity, that continuum is a circle, a mere cycle of power that humans always seem to follow.

    We Americans, from an early age, are told that the tree of liberty must continue to grow and be spread throughout the world. This is also a falsity. The founders clearly stated that the tree of liberty dies, and is only reborn again with the blood of tyrants. I fear we are nearing that time.

    In the end, I can only blame the people that have let this happen. I speak out daily against stupidity, and for it, I am labeled a radical. There are more than two ways to solve a problem, no party could ever encompass my true desires.

    Nut, I am going to say this, and it may offend you. I had nothing to do with this war. I can only support the good men and women we sent over there. So please do not paint Americans with such a broad brush. Had this war been truly about the oil, we could simply eradicate the populations of the middle east. This war was about a construed sense of what our purpose is. America in its current state is incredibly bi-polar. We have two different mindsets pursuing different goals and agendas. We have presidents who promise one thing, then say another. We have a populous that does not understand what it means to work for what you have.

    When that reality comes crashing down, I can only hope for the worlds sake that they’re ready. A cash strapped nation of self-entitled brats with big guns is a scary thought. Especially when the trend is ever growing that they do not respect the sanctity of life, nor the boundaries of other individuals.

    Who says tomorrow they will not be banging on your door demanding your goods and services? If you think America is bad now, wait until we really start hurting.

    I want no part of most things political, I desire to live my life comfortably, and to pursue my own interests. It is my firm belief that most people also wish to live this way. The real problem is the movers and shakers, demanding that everyone else do what is in “the best interests”. They take many forms, and come from all countries and origins. They are wholly unhappy with what is, and only think of what should be in their mind. Unfortunately, since their desires are seldom grounded in reality, we end up with this sort of mess. A war for ideals, a war for freedom, a war for oil. What it is really, is an excuse for those movers and shakers to take and do what they want by force. Plain and simple. They see suffering, vulnerability, and passion, and they capitalize on it for their own benefit.

    In my humble opinion, America needs to stay in America. Exporting our ideals, our desires, and our production is just an excuse to intervene down the road. We used to be the worlds largest exporter of oil, now we are the largest importer. Our strategy is no longer imperial, it is merely contracted out, to be called in at a moment notice. If you disobey, well, we have guns. See how this is potentially problematic? We should only use our tools in defense, never to force or seize. It makes those choices all the more complicated when your enemy is a largely diverse group of extremist hell bent on destroying anything they ‘dislike’. Another wonderful group of movers and shakers. The rest of us pay for it.

    All the best,

    Armor

    #66087

    Rommel
    Participant

    .

    #66088

    Laptops Daddy
    Participant

    I can tell you right now the American people wanted blood after 9/11. A trial was never an option. You saw the way Bin Laden was dealt with? We never had any intention of putting him on trial. Afghanistan was the obvious target. They supposedly harbored him and trained others that were like minded. I think the idea was to answer the attack with an overwhelming response so as to deter future incidents. Something a trial sorely lacks.

    well that’s the problem. that’s the way it looked from here, too, and i gather it looked similar from elsewhere in europe.

    i try keep in mind or assume that if you’d asked probably any average american prior to 9/11 what they thought of the twin towers, they’d probably have answered with “twin what?”

    “oh, those office blocks in new york? dunno, never been.”

    who stirred up the blood lust?

    i don’t suppose it matters. the big point here is that the general taste for war, patriotism and aggression towards the enemy seems to be quite unique to the US, at least among say the g8 or similarly industrialised countries.

    i don’t accept that a typical american is any more hungry for violence than anyone else, but it does seem like the flavour of US media and political debate promotes those human traits as desirable rather than infringements on a tolerant modern society, to be stamped out or at least tempered anywhere possible.

    i can’t speak for UK people, but i can tell you that from my perspective even some of the most progressive US policies seem like the sort of thing you’d expect from the BNP in this country (ie, the sort of fringe political groups who get eggs thrown at them for being racist bigots).

    i’ve not read this in full, i just googled for it because i remember the events. those in the US might find it interesting if not aware http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/feb/15/iraq-war-mass-protest

    keep in mind again, the contrast here. the UK is an island, backwards, conservative, isolated, with a monarchy and a prat with a butler dressing him each morning : ). still there were millions on the streets in protest. compare UK to mainland europe where freedom fries come with human rights burgers and you get an idea of how the US must look to some.

    *i don’t blame tony blair, personally. the way he comes across creeps me out a bit, but i suspect his hands were tied. it’s likely the UK have a legal contract to back up the US military with or without public support, though i’m guessing.

    i doubt the US rushed to europe’s aid all of a sudden in WW2 without churchill offering some incentive and commitment to scratch a back or two.

    Had this war been truly about the oil, we could simply eradicate the populations of the middle east.

    come on. that’s just silly. no you (they) couldn’t. any real war with the US standing alone, without international politics and diplomacy, outright war with the US following genocide or some such?

    no, that’s crazy talk. i don’t think anyone in the US or anywhere else should be that complacent. the US is about as vulnerable as any other developed country. any military attack on the US by any country, would do a lot of harm to the US, the same way it would here. you’re not invulnerable with another hundred billion spent on jets and destroyers.

    can you imagine if in an actual war in 2014, they (any enemy) hit just one big internet provider in the UK, or the national grid, say?

    isn’t that the other side of having all that development and dependence on technology?

    a country like iraq could have brought the UK or even the US to its knees if it’d been inclined to, even in 2003. they weren’t inclined to, i guess it wouldn’t have helped matters, but if ever we did go down the awful path of ‘eradication'(?! come on)/all out war, the game would change completely.

    **strong emphasis – i know you were making the point that it therefore wasn’t anything like that, but still, even the suggestion or impression that they could do that is quite terrifying and probably a recipe for imagining an end to the world as we know it. you can’t just throw a deaths head and hide under a ton of dirt until the next round when you’re a country whose economy could collapse overnight should the latest iphone fall flat for the wrong number of corners.

    ps:
    hi rommel. i find your slimline posts a bit difficult to read when i’ve already adjusted to everyone else’s at full width.

    #66089

    Rommel
    Participant

    .

    #66090

    Deathbal
    Participant

    I will default to ArmorWraith, who wrote a post that I could only hope to duplicate. There is nothing I can say that was not included somewhere in his post. But one the things were the American people. As a whole I do not think we pay enough attention to what our politicians do. More often than not, we pick a side and support them. We really have to pay better attention.

    #66091

    Deathbal
    Participant

    @laptops Daddy wrote:

    well that’s the problem. that’s the way it looked from here, too, and i gather it looked similar from elsewhere in europe.

    i try keep in mind or assume that if you’d asked probably any average american prior to 9/11 what they thought of the twin towers, they’d probably have answered with “twin what?”

    “oh, those office blocks in new york? dunno, never been.”

    who stirred up the blood lust?

    i don’t suppose it matters. the big point here is that the general taste for war, patriotism and aggression towards the enemy seems to be quite unique to the US, at least among say the g8 or similarly industrialised countries.

    I worked within a few miles of the site. I saw building 7 come down right from my workplace. Who stirred up the bloodlust? The constant video tape of planes slamming into buildings. That is what stirred the bloodlust, nothing else. And to say Europe might be immune to such emotions I find hard to believe given their history of war. European conflict is the reason arms advanced as far and quickly as it did. They may claim moral superiority now, as they always have, but that doesn’t mean an attack of that scale would have them screaming for a trial.

    #66092

    Chopper
    Participant

    Dis-entangling religion, politics and business from the relations of countries today is difficult.
    The solution?….I just don’t freaking know.
    But, I can only hope, come next election, no matter WHERE you live…….. you will vote your conscience, its all we have left to influence our respective governments.

    Please let’s stop talking politics and let AW’s comments, as always wise beyond his years, put this to bed.

    I miss my friends and our good times. 😥

    #66093

    ArmorWraith
    Participant

    @chopper wrote:

    I miss my friends and our good times. 😥

    I agree, there really is no point continuing further on this topic for me. It is evident that each of us has a personal tie to this subject. I find core beliefs will seldom change via a random internet voice. I am glad we could have this discussion though.

    It would seem we all fault someone along the line, and I would suggest that every point brought up in the examination of this topic has a grain of truth embedded in it. We all seem to be in harmony with the fact that war and violence are undesirable.

    Cheers,

    Armor

    #66094

    Rommel
    Participant

    The only viable solution that I can envision is that we keep working at
    untangling the things you mention and put them in proper perspective.

    This can not be accomplished without having logical discussions that
    engage as many people as possible from all walks of life and cultures.

    @chopper wrote:

    Dis-entangling religion, politics and business from the relations of countries today is difficult.
    The solution?….I just don’t freaking know.
    But, I can only hope, come next election, no matter WHERE you live…….. you will vote your conscience, its all we have left to influence our respective governments.

    Please let’s stop talking politics and let AW’s comments, as always wise beyond his years, put this to bed.

    I miss my friends and our good times. 😥

    Thus, it seems that as distateful as the untangling might be, it is
    still better than simply ignoring the obvious and hoping for change.

    The only truely important change that I see in this presidency is
    that we are once again on the brink of a world wide nuclear war.

    That means New York, Chicago, and Culpepper, VA this time.
    This time, the war will be coming to the U.S.A. too, in spades.

    When it comes to nuclear weapons, there will be no do-overs.

    Speaking of respectful discourse with those from other cultures, I’d like
    you to all note that Raden flys with Malaysian Airlines. If you ever see
    this Raden, and I hope that you do, you have been in my thoughts.

    A post just to say you are fine would be great.
    Best wishes and best wishes to you all.

    May God bless us, everyone.

    Sincerely,

    Rommel

    #66095

    Laptops Daddy
    Participant

    it is very difficult to work out where we’re biased and where we’re not, isn’t it?

    The only viable solution that I can envision is that we keep working at
    untangling the things you mention and put them in proper perspective.

    i think it’s good to discuss.

    It is evident that each of us has a personal tie to this subject. I find core beliefs will seldom change via a random internet voice.

    i find discussions like this are a prompt for some awareness of my own position.

    i still have a lingering distaste for the US, following the bush years. i wish i didnt, but it’s there.

    i have no problem with american people generally, i have lots of internet mates in the US, etc, e.g. some of you guys, but the US itself still feels like something i’m against and that i’m wary of.

    trying to place why that is, is difficult for me.

    examples, patriotism, talk of gods backing people up. the pledge of allegiance almost makes me shudder, the idea that kids are made to do that – it’s not far off a nazi salute. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52dfJnLkEd4 (i don’t know if you get that, from a US point of view, to me it’s terrifying).

    this sort of thing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJC1unnuwds , is the impression the world is given.

    I had nothing to do with this war. I can only support the good men and women we sent over there.

    of course, and they are good people, i’m sure, even the guys in that youtube are good people. young men getting a bit too full of testosterone, america, fuck yeah https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhnUgAaea4M they are still basically good people trying to do the job they were told to. i guess soldiers generally aren’t recruited with a pref for thinkers who’ve earned a few grey hairs, over fighters ready to go get’m.

    the question for me is, still, why do i have a distaste for the US?

    there are lots of other countries with relgious roots feeding their government, with kids taught that national pride is cool and something to embrace, and it doesnt bother me, but in the US, it riles me.

    i guess it may be because i can’t help judging americans by the same standards as brits. we speak the same language, we share the same films and music, we have broadly similar social conventions? i suppose i find it difficult to recognise the US as an independent culture entitled to its own way of doing things. it doesn’t feel like racism of any sort, and i don’t think it’s because the states should be toeing any sort of line. i think it’s because when it comes down to it, the british may as well be american and vice versa, in so many respects that anything stupid you guys do, is us brits and europeans doing it too.

    could there be a similar phenomenon elsewhere in the world?

    suppose you’re in a one of the countries the US sees as an outside threat, and you’ve grown up with michael or samuel l jackson, arnold swarzenegger, sesame street or the muppets, like everyone else, all the cool stuff, hollywood. it’s probably like suddenly realising your family are coming to kill you.

    i don’t know if there’s any merit in that idea. some cultures are a lot more distant, but worldwide, really still, US exports are a lot more far reaching than oil or weaponry.

    if there is any merit in that, i think it’s kind of saying that if the US is hated more than it should be, maybe it’s because people feel betrayed by their own shared identity?

    it’s not because the US isn’t liked, it’s because it’s too liked or at least too ingrained everywhere, and they’re letting everyone down going from <3 21st century to king richard on a crusade every time the republicans take office.

    #66096

    Rommel
    Participant

    In the end, more than freedom, they wanted security. They wanted a comfortable
    life, and they lost it all – security, comfort, and freedom. When the Athenians finally
    wanted not to give to society but for society to give to them, when the freedom
    they wished for most was freedom from responsibility, then Athens ceased to be
    free and was never free again. – Edward Gibbon

    P.S. To Laptop’s Daddy : Nice post, your depictions are very visual. Uncle Sam
    with a meat cleaver. Obama with a chain saw, Arnold with the maid.

    Oh yeah, “cherry-picked quotes” ? How nice of you to notice.

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