This topic contains 71 replies, has 0 voices, and was last updated by  xtc 3 years, 3 months ago.

  • Author
    Posts
  • #7793

    PeanutsRevenge
    Participant

    I mean… liberate a country, secure WMDs, capture an evil dictator.

    YouTube

    And they want to go into Syria, Iran and North Korea at the moment.
    Empire building sure is great.
    Please, if you’re an American who’s allowed to vote (not many of you left), don’t vote for any of these scummy, murderous, thieving, lying, moronic arseholes. Put ‘None of the above’ to show you do care (hence turned out) and have had enough of this. All you’re doing with these wars is ensuring yet ANOTHER few generation hate you for devastating their country and lives AND making a few massive companies enormously rich (who then pay very little tax).

    #66068

    Laptops Daddy
    Participant

    i’m not so interested in the financial cost.

    i would be interested to see a total death toll. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War

    it’s difficult to find numbers for afghanistan that aren’t restricted to US military deaths http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_the_War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%93present)

    two illegal wars, with numbers ranging from… a few thousand killed in the US military ‘plus others’ (probably terrorists), to upwards of 5 million people, each with family members, memories, ambitions as a child, a pet they might have shed a tear for, etc, perhaps depending on whether you factor in dependants dying in poverty, and on whether you dare stray from pro-war media at the risk of scrutiny. are you one of them?

    “exaggerated death tolls”, is a phrase i think i read. from my narrow perspective, i think it makes sense to find the highest estimate you can, double it for deaths as a direct consequence, and then multiply that a bit more for the overall impact – all those directly affected and whose lives were destroyed by the loss of a loved one.

    i like to think im a pacifist. i imagine (i try not to), i imagine that staying cool and refusing to harbour any hate is quite difficult if your family have been blown to pieces (on either side).

    who knows what the answer is. personally i think apologies never hurt, though they’re never enough.

    obama, get on a broadcast and apologise on behalf of the US and the west. “we didn’t deal with this well, empathy, huge apologies.” appeal for communication and a way to fix this and set things right. that would be a step in the right direction. you might even earn a peace prize for something other than not being george bush.

    setting peaceful examples is probably a good angle. i think this guy had the right idea http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahatma_Gandhi

    #66069

    PeanutsRevenge
    Participant

    Why governments can’t apologise:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WqPsB1vEoI

    I’ve had really flaky internet since Friday, it’s frustrated the hell out of me.

    I can’t even imagine what it’s like when your home’s been blown up, your work place, telephone exchange, corner shop, water supply, electricity supply.
    Even excluding the finances and death toll, just the impact on the infrastructure would cause me to be at least a little miffed!

    #66070

    Chopper
    Participant

    As I see it….

    Iraq …big mistake we’re out of there now
    Afghanistan… ditto
    Syria….God willing we’ll stay out of that.

    But here’s the problem.
    When it hits the fan, the world wants us, your country and the rest of NATO to “do something”…then when we do (in spite of building infrastructure, sending food, paying off local doofus for whatever)
    they hate us. It has put the American people in a huge debt.

    Frustrating part is the dumbazzes just go back to killing each other.

    Let me put it this way.
    Next time, I damn sure wouldn’t answer the phone…way I see it, they hate us either way and its way cheaper to just let it ring.

    #66071

    Hyde911
    Participant

    @chopper wrote:

    It has put the American people in a huge debt.

    Dear Chopp you’ve put there entirely by yourself. Nobody asked to go to Afghanistan or Iraq, nobody wanted to go. You even lied you allies about weapon of mass destruction. I’m not sure why did you go Afghanistan but I think nobody has any doubts about Iraq – oil.
    Whetever the reasons you went because you wanted protect your interests. Which is entirely understandable, but lets don’t delude ourselfs about human rights and stuff like that. In fact you have no problems with dealing with worst dictators as long as they cooperate. Saudi Arabia is a good example (I wish I live long enough to see they run out of the oil). It’s medieval thyrany where slavery is practically legitimate and half of the society (women) has no rights at all. But it doesn’t stop you from making buisness with them.
    In 70s and 80s you supported worst dictatorships in Latin America as long they weren’t red.
    In 1979 you were surprised why your buddy Pahlavi were overthrown by Islamic revolution.
    Don’t expect people will like you after that.

    There is only few cases when USA intervened to protect local population. I.e. Yugoslav Wars. When conflict really started to go nasty and Europe didn’t know what to do. You came there, kick a shit out of the bad guys and went out. Job done.

    @chopper wrote:

    Frustrating part is the dumbazzes just go back to killing each other.

    It’s because in naivety you think democracy is like plant you just spread it out. You don’t have to be genius to know democracy will never work out in country like Afghanistan. But it came to you AFTER you went there.

    #66072

    PeanutsRevenge
    Participant

    @chopper wrote:

    As I see it….

    But here’s the problem.
    When it hits the fan, the world wants us, your country and the rest of NATO to “do something”…then when we do (in spite of building infrastructure, sending food, paying off local doofus for whatever)
    they hate us. It has put the American people in a huge debt.

    WHAT? You actually believe that shit?

    It was America begging NATO/UN etc to allow you to bomb the crap out Iraq, when you didn’t get it, you went and did it anyway (and we went along for the ride because our ‘leaders’ can’t stop sucking your ‘leaders’ cocks long enough to say no!).

    We want America to leave people the fuck alone, stop drone striking innocent people (cos that’s not going to piss them off and make them hate you), stop building up your empire in order to keep pumping money into mega corporations who are getting rich from War after War while the general public get poorer due to pumping their money into Rich bank accounts.

    Let’s also remember that Saudi Arabia appear to be the ones that financed 9/11, but do you do anything about that? No, because they’re supplying you with oil.

    FFS, your county’s at war with itself at the moment over Fracking. People can’t even drink the water from their own taps because it’s fucking toxic, but that’s okay, because it’s providing cheap gas! You’ve got the LGBT community being attacked from moronic religious nuts who seem to think that because it was “Adam & Eve” instead of “Adam & John” then LGBT’s should be put to death. It was Blacks until the switch.
    You’re taking more and more money from the poor communities to pay for bigger and bigger tax breaks for the rich.
    And you actually, genuinely believes the rest of the world looks UP to you? You country’s becoming scummier and more hated every single day.

    Stop watching fucking O’Reilly factor and start doing actual research!

    Damn, I can’t believe you actually believe that shit, I thought you were one of the decent Americans who we struggle to hear from!

    #66073

    Chopper
    Participant

    Lot of broad statements there guys, I for one try to avoid political stuff. Don’t paint all americans with such a broad brush.

    Yeah, we are naïve thinking that a bunch of sand dwellers want something better for themselves. We should just leave them alone…bUT, as Peanut knows, they’re not staying in their sand and rocks.

    I agree, without becoming isolationists, I hope we stay out of affairs of other countries. There should be a balance and I hope we find it.

    Mr Obama certainly wasn’t a bit of help huh?

    Looks like there’s a soviet reunion going on, what happens if they come back for Poland?

    #66074

    Hyde911
    Participant

    @chopper wrote:

    Lot of broad statements there guys, I for one try to avoid political stuff. Don’t paint all americans with such a broad brush.

    I didn’t mean Americans but USA government. Americans are like everybody else. Mostly naive and ignorant. And like I said America did some good stuff, but it is overshadowed by bad things.

    @chopper wrote:

    Yeah, we are naïve thinking that a bunch of sand dwellers want something better for themselves. We should just leave them alone…bUT, as Peanut knows, they’re not staying in their sand and rocks.

    Chopp, the problem is that you USA doesn’t try to help them just go there to do business.
    @chopper wrote:

    I agree, without becoming isolationists, I hope we stay out of affairs of other countries. There should be a balance and I hope we find it.

    USA can’t afford to be isolationists. You’re the only superpower atm and you need protect your interests all over the world. You just need to consider others opinion from time to time.

    @chopper wrote:

    Looks like there’s a soviet reunion going on, what happens if they come back for Poland?

    Poland wasn’t part of USSR. Anyway Russia is weak despite all that big talk. I doubt they go into full scale conflict with Ukraine. And last thing they need is clash with EU. However Ukraine may fall apart.

    EDIT: I’m really curious about USA response to Russian intrusion in Ukraine.

    #66076

    Deathbal
    Participant

    @chopper wrote:

    Yeah, we are naïve thinking that a bunch of sand dwellers want something better for themselves. We should just leave them alone…bUT, as Peanut knows, they’re not staying in their sand and rocks.

    This is the one thing people keep forgetting. If there was no 9/11 there would not have been an Afghanistan or the Iraq spin off. But yes, we have made some bad mistakes in our response. That said, if we’re attacked again we’ll respond again. Maybe some countries are happy with crying, holding vigils, and lighting some candles, but that’s not us. We will respond with force. Hopefully we can keep it localized to those responsible.

    As far as using force for humanitarian aid, I am against it. If the rest of the world is ok with generation after generation of North Korean’s rotting away, who are we to step in?

    BTW, how is that European military? What if Russia decided to push a little further west? I do not believe they will, but what if?

    #66077

    PeanutsRevenge
    Participant

    @deathbal wrote:

    @chopper wrote:

    Yeah, we are naïve thinking that a bunch of sand dwellers want something better for themselves. We should just leave them alone…bUT, as Peanut knows, they’re not staying in their sand and rocks.

    This is the one thing people keep forgetting. If there was no 9/11 there would not have been an Afghanistan or the Iraq spin off. But yes, we have made some bad mistakes in our response. That said, if we’re attacked again we’ll respond again. Maybe some countries are happy with crying, holding vigils, and lighting some candles, but that’s not us. We will respond with force. Hopefully we can keep it localized to those responsible.

    As far as using force for humanitarian aid, I am against it. If the rest of the world is ok with generation after generation of North Korean’s rotting away, who are we to step in?

    BTW, how is that European military? What if Russia decided to push a little further west? I do not believe they will, but what if?

    You ignorant shit
    YOU orchestrated ‘9/11’, Sadam didn’t tow the line of giving up the oil, you couldn’t bribe him, you couldn’t kill or overthrow him, you couldn’t shift him through intimidation (Gulf war) so you invaded the fucking country.

    I’ve had enough of this forum, too many ignorant fucking americans who believe the bullshit they see on T.V

    I’m gone enjoy your fucking ignorance!

    For those that would like to overcome there ignorance, watch these in the order posted (not the order of release)

    Zeitgeist Moving Forward. #3
    Zeitgeist Addendum. #2
    Zeitgeist the Movie. #1

    #66075

    Laptops Daddy
    Participant

    that’s an angry peanut. why all the swearing?

    i would also like to respond to a couple of quotes.

    This is the one thing people keep forgetting. If there was no 9/11 there would not have been an Afghanistan or the Iraq spin off. But yes, we have made some bad mistakes in our response. That said, if we’re attacked again we’ll respond again.

    it was the other way around, really, though, wasn’t it? quite clearly, i think. the states’ perceived threat or poor image was the reason for 9/11. call it the west, not just the states. i think the US just happened to be the unfortunate flag bearer for the injustice or contempt those people must have felt.

    it wasn’t a military attack as a prelude to war, was it? that’s ridiculous. if whichever group responsible had intended to do as much harm to the country and people as they could, they could have flown planes into nuclear power stations.

    no, the emphasis was on the landmarks and the statement they were making. destroying the towers and hitting the pentagon wasn’t a military strategy. that’s too absurd. the germans wouldn’t have focused the eiffel tower or big ben in ww2.

    “hm, ja, we feel this is of paramount importance to our strategic advantage. destroy sie big ben immediately! it willl cripple their timekeeping.”

    we can joke about ww2 now. i don’t know about 9/11. maybe it’s still a bit soon.

    how could people become so disenamoured and hateful that they would do that?

    the obvious threat bush posed to the world and the things he seemed to stand for probably didn’t help.

    the point is that 9/11 was no act of war by any country, was it? it was a small band of brainwashed disillusioned young men imagining that killing innocent people was a way to make a statement.

    it made a statement. more of a statement because it was an atrocity involving innocent people and gave the US the excuse it’d been waiting for.

    it was an excuse. iraq had nothing to do with it, did it? and neither did afghanistan so far as i know.

    ok, some religious guy in a part of the world that already had a lot of hatred for the US might have put his hands up to it. the sensible response to that would be to either assume it was nonsense, or if they were naive enough to believe it, capture him and put him on trial.

    why would he confess to it if he had nothing to do with it? because he’d have loved to have them believe he did and that he had that sort of reach, him and probably many other angry bin laden(/bush) sorts outside of the US who probably have reason to despise the picture they’ve been given of the states.

    it’s not an accurate picture. most people in the US are cool, the same way most people in afghanistan are cool.

    When it hits the fan, the world wants us, your country and the rest of NATO to “do something”…then when we do (in spite of building infrastructure, sending food, paying off local doofus for whatever)
    they hate us. It has put the American people in a huge debt.

    i dont like “they and us”.

    the governments are sending ‘aid’ to try to compensate for the destruction their policies have caused, and whether some of the intentions are good or not, any US or british military attack on any part of either iraq or afhganistan is, was and remains illegal under international law, amounting to an invasion of two countries undermined for decades by the same aggressors and occupying forces, at least, that’s the impression i have from reading wikipedia and watching mainstream politics in the UK. do set me straight on that if i have it wrong.

    religion.

    i’m british, i’m not a bit religious, christian, muslim or otherwise. i don’t care whose dieties are better.

    from my point of view, no one group’s religious ideology is any more or less valid than say australian aboriginal mythology, ie, completely irrelevant in the 21st century when it comes to whether it’s right to go around blowing people up. (sorry australia) (no worries)

    anyway, 9/11, imo they could have made as much a statement by setting themselves on fire in new york city, without hurting anyone else. i mean if they were going to kill themselves anyway and really couldn’t imagine a better way out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thich_Quang_Duc

    summary, i think we all need to get over this ‘them and us’ idea. we’re all exactly the same. and i think everyone in the US, UK or anywhere else where people believe that a typical afghan or iraqi would have any reason to dislike the west if they didn’t feel like they were under attack and getting screwed over or invaded by an aggressive foreign power, should make sure they know some of the history going back a hundred years or so and double check that their beliefs stand up.

    also i think everyone in afghan and elsewhere who thinks it’s some sort of religious war should take a second look. there is no religious war from a european or uk perspective. it’s not legal or socially acceptable to discriminate against people based on religion, even for positions in government. there are still big problems with bigots lingering on the sidelines, of course, but things are heading in the right direction.

    europe and the US are islamic already, and christian, and buddhist, hindi, and mostly n/a striving towards respect for everyone and the right to believe in anything you like. i’d add a smiley face, but i’m trying to be profound and neutral. 😐

    #66078

    Deathbal
    Participant

    @laptops Daddy wrote:

    that’s an angry peanut. why all the swearing?

    I am surprised he didn’t go straight to prison planet. Someone that subscribes to conspiracy theories calling someone else stupid. Imagine that.

    it was the other way around, really, though, wasn’t it? quite clearly, i think. the state’s perceived threat or poor image was the reason for 9/11. call it the west, not just the states. i think the US just happened to be the unfortunate flag bearer for the injustice or contempt those people must have felt.

    Even if you looked at it this way, what response did you expect?

    the point is that 9/11 was no act of war by any country, was it? it was a small band of brainwashed disillusioned young men imagining that killing innocent people was a way to make a statement.

    it made a statement. more of a statement because it was an atrocity involving innocent people and gave the US the excuse it’d been waiting for.

    It was not overtly state sponsored for obvious reasons. But that doesn’t mean it didn’t have some state aid. Whether it was Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia, there is no way for me personally to know. As far as the excuse you are referring to, that has more to do with Iraq. In hindsight, it does appear to be the truth. We were beating the drums of war against Iraq going back to the Clinton Admin.

    it was an excuse. iraq had nothing to do with it, did it? and neither did afghanistan so far as i know.

    ok, some religious guy in a part of the world that already had a lot of hatred for the US might have put his hands up to it. the sensible response to that would be to either assume it was nonsense, or if they were naive enough to believe it, capture him and put him on trial.

    Clearly Iraq had nothing to do with it. Which is why I called it a spin off. I don’t know what Afghanistan had to do with the attack or the aftermath. But it was a hotbed for terrorists and the most obvious place to strike. After an attack like that the last thing any President was going to do is find and put a man on trial. Every politician in the USA would have lost his job. Iraq was the foolish endeavor. But hey, it’s a good thing we didn’t listen to the people that said Germany had nothing to do with Pearl Harbor, right?

    #66079

    ArmorWraith
    Participant

    I just want to ask everyone to step back and take a breather. I know this is a very touchy topic as it involves politics, religion, national pride, responsibility, war, and death. These are all hot button issues that commonly divide communities.

    We’re all friends here, don’t let the foggy past dictate your interactions. I feel it would in the best interest to lock this thread and throw away the key, but I also value worthwhile examination and discourse.

    I will let this be for now, but it is definitely not headed in a good direction. I do not mean substance wise. Remember that each person will recount a situation relative to their home and heart, not a single person is ever immune to that.

    All the best,

    Armor

    #66080

    Chopper
    Participant

    @peanutsrevenge wrote:

    …I’ve had enough of this forum, too many ignorant f**k americans who believe the bullshit they see on T.V……
    I’m gone enjoy your f**k ignorance!

    Wow…Just wow… #-o ..why the hate man? I did nothing to you.

    #66081

    Deathbal
    Participant

    @chopper wrote:

    @peanutsrevenge wrote:

    …I’ve had enough of this forum, too many ignorant f**k americans who believe the bullshit they see on T.V……
    I’m gone enjoy your f**k ignorance!

    Wow…Just wow… #-o ..why the hate man? I did nothing to you.

    This is why threads get locked. There are ways to communicate displeasure in a civilized manner, and the alternative. I think me and Rommel showed you can deliver a few jabs and still show respect. There is no reason a hot topic cannot be discussed. It is only when someone begins to fly off the handle that a thread can turn into a dog and pony show. You just can’t respond in kind.

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 73 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.