This topic contains 83 replies, has 0 voices, and was last updated by  cbx550f 10 years, 9 months ago.

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  • #38529

    pr1mat3
    Participant

    @chopper wrote:

    If grids are a prob….just turn ’em off.

    I am fascinated with this game, not the the gameplay, but the complexity of virtuality it presents. I have built a grid counter into an excel spreadsheet that calculates the power for a shot with 2 inputs- the length in squares of the sides of a right triangle between you and your target. It has two correction modes for height differences, based on trigonometry and an assumption Vihor mentioned to me. Vihor your english is fine.

    Basically this grid counter can be pretty accurate, but it is only a starting point. It can account for altitude but wind effect is impossible to predict. Also terrain can intercept a perfectly good arc that would otherwise kill. I played 20 rounds on the player stats/no bots server and these are all the shots I could get using it. I will distribute it freely if desired (pm me)

    This tool is for a 60 degree angle only, but it would be trivial to reproduce this tool for all/any angle. The tough part is using it on the fly in a game setting. Many times I missed turns as I was getting input data.

    This game is pretty cool but anyone who is against grid counting is simply too afraid to take it to the next level. Gridding is not a guarantee, only a good first shot; maybe it takes the fun out of my game, but how does that affect yours? Good players should not afraid of gridders; it is not an unfair advantage because anyone can do it- the info is there and available to all. And it is a skill, and it is not easy to do under time constraints in an online game setting.

    The grid is like a scope on a rifle. It takes time to tweak it, but when you figure it out, it can be very accurate. Don’t blame me if you want to stick with the iron sights; its your choice.

    #38530

    BigBear
    Participant

    @irishbandit wrote:

    Ummm I like to play mcb with players that shoot that good helps me with my aim.

    AS far as the grid users i have seen some really awesome shooting as far as i know they didnt square count. Some people shoot that good. Any way it cant be proved one way or another if people really are using a grid. So its kind of a mute point.

    If the a server has the grid disabled, there will will be no counting period. There is no need to prove or disprove anything in this scenario.

    @ InductiveOne
    Not sharing your opinion is not whining by default you know. If you want to sway people towards your sentiment I’d suggest you come up with some sort of argument instead of just telling people to be quiet and move on. If you lack in the arguments department or the topic is not to your liking, maby you should take your own advice and not say anything.

    As BOY said, we have two servers. I fail to see any reason why one of them couldn’t have the grid disabled. As far as I am concerned, it doesn’t matter which one of them it is if that is the potential problem that would make some resist such a notion. If the only drawback to play on a no grid server is to loose the opportunity to get another medal displayed in the forums I’d happily accept. It’s a textbook no brainer for me. If it turns out that I’m wrong and the games are much more fun on the other server and/or people prefer to play for medals, then that’s quite alright too. The goal for me is to have the opportunity to try something I think (and I suspect I’m not alone in this) would improve on the quality of gameplay.

    EDIT: Saw pr1mat3’s post after sending mine. I’m extremely curious about the response from the community on this one. 😈 Taking the game to the next level you say. I call it killing the fun and the spirit of the game. Oh and I call it other things too, but I’d best not say that word at the present to avoid a heated debate over the choice of words instead of the issue at hand.

    #38531

    DireWolf
    Participant

    Well, Pastor of Muppets has decided to take a break, partially due to the grid counting, and you have people posting how to count grids, this does not look good, when I made my earlier post it was after talking to other players with the same gripes, that is why I posted what I did, there is a problem!
    I dont hate grid counting, or the people who use it, but, the people who dont should not have to take up grid counting to keep up with those who do.

    I would love to hear Gavins opinionsideas on this subject, if possible 😕

    #38532

    pastor of muppets
    Participant

    Honestly I don’t hate grid counters I am good friends with many of them I just feel it has gotten carried away. I discovered that last night as I watched Ellie try to figure out how to do it because she felt that was the only way to be able to compete with these guys. I am not angry at anyone nor am I whining about anything I agree when someone threatens you shoot at them. But I also believe that this is what the forums was developed for so I will speak my piece.

    I do think it would be a good option to have a grid server and a non grid server, I am impressed with the gridders and respect them and their math abilities. I am just too dumb to keep up, HEH 🙂 I join to play I play to win and I do it all for fun.

    #38533

    pr1mat3
    Participant

    @pastor of muppets wrote:

    I discovered that last night as I watched Ellie try to figure out how to do it because she felt that was the only way to be able to compete with these guys.
    I join to play I play to win and I do it all for fun.

    Grid counting lowers the learning curve, but won’t make you a pro. Pros have excellent judgement; they are gridding in their head. Gridding just helps you get the “feel” faster. You can’t get a first-shot baby missile kill unless there’s no more than F1 wind, you have time to count, and the height diff is not more than 4-5 contours.

    I am amazed at how many insecure players are threatened by gridding (*thrax*); the info is there, it is begging to be done. If you have the “feel”, a grid is redundant. Especially since gridding takes far more time than guesstimating with your brain.

    Gridding is more difficult than pantsing it; should workers be punished for employing intelligence?

    #38534

    NP-TheOutlaw
    Participant

    @pr1mat3 wrote:

    I am fascinated with this game, not the the gameplay…..

    ok the statement above was quite disturbing.

    [bizzare]
    huh? not the gameplay……yeah, that’s the ticket…
    I like to go online..
    but not for the gameplay.
    [/bizzare]



    suggestions thread:
    so here ya go (short & to the point)

    It would be really cool if the grid was gone
    for 1 series only. on a sort of trial run phase.

    I know for a fact….not one person is going to
    start flooding the forums saying: where are the grids!! I want em back!



    I’ve played the mental game in my head at times and said: how is it really possible to count that far away? when I know from experience that the target is in the range of 850-950 power away.

    I’m beginning to suspect that the mini-map maybe the real culprit & not control-g (although the G should be quite deadly for short range shots)

    #38535

    Chopper
    Participant

    Turn the damn grid OFF!
    I don’t wanna get kilt by an excel expert……….. #-o

    #38536

    Brain Damage
    Participant

    i want to discuss the argument purely on the technical part (i already stated my opinion in past posts), even if i never tried (and i will certainly not) to apply those considerations in the game (i would loose all the fun)

    let me try to correct few common wrong informations i saw around:

    a: unlike some people said, it’s possible to calculate the ending point with accuracy of a millimeter, by knowing the right informations; X,Y,Z distances are a necessary information to do such calculation, but there are few special conditions (the a key for exmaple makes redundant the z information, or high elevation can make the Y coordinate less relevant) that will reduce the need of informations just to:
    -distance to the target
    -wind speed
    -wind direction
    -elevation

    b: the “calculation power” requied to do such task is really low; an human with a calculator is able to do that within 5 min (i can speak of personal experience, i had a ballistics exercise in an exam); a pentium processor with 166 MHz clock would finish within few microseconds .

    c: the more trivial task would be to obtain the distance to the target; since the zoom is variable you need a fixed reference (would you be able to judge someone’s height in a picture without a reference?); the grid & the minimap can accomplish suck tasks since they have fixed size to provide the reference to measure the distance with squares.

    d: never tried personally, but i think it would be impossible to count within the shot time by eye, a ruler or similar tool would be requied to measure the distance fast

    e: the size of the square would be a critical factor, a grid with large squares would be less accurate than a a grid with smaller squares

    f: math is not required to produce a distance-over-square table, you can just experiment with all wind conditions, shoot, and take note the distance in squares where your projectile lands.

    g: the minmap probably wouldn’t be as much as accurate as the”landscape grid” due to size, square size, and won’t show landing point of the missile; also if the map size would vary, it would need a scaling factor

    h: removing the grid would make rulers much much less effective due to the lack of fixed reference to compensate zoom

    just to add a bit more “authority” to my text, i had 4 phisics courses at my university.

    #38537

    Deathbal
    Participant

    What learning curve? In a month or two you can be winning games without a grid. Not even that long.

    Also, steroids in Pro sports can be considered “taking it to another level” as well, but you see that frowned apon right? Why is that?

    I like the idea to turn grids off. This game, to me, is about using your judgement. Not using an external tool for answers and hoping there isn’t a cliff in the way of your angle.

    I love it when I make a great first or second shot. Doesn’t happen that often, but it sure feels good when it does. I have to pick the weapon, target, an angle i’m not used to using, deal with wind and the clock running out …..and get off a great shot……Thats why I play. For days like that. Can you say the same?

    #38538

    apache64d
    Participant

    why the heck nobody removed that very deatailed grid?? isn’t what we wanted to prevent??
    I won’t do it again. Tierd that im considuring the “bad guy” after im blocking topic that sceams “cheating!”

    #38539

    Timinator
    Participant

    For whatever it is worth, this opinion comes from a relative Scorched Newbie, in fact this is my first ever post. I would be a strong advocate of one of two scenarios. Either A) Grids are disabled completely on the main servers, or B) A seperate server is created for grid counters, and all other servers have them disabled. If either of these isn’t pursued, I feel like I will have to invest the time in creating my own spreadsheet, or get my butt whipped. It is troubling to me when I hear some of the other guys, such as Tnick, talk about how excited they are to begin learning how to count grids. Tnick is a great guy, and I can’t fault him, but I can’t help feeling as though he is part of a growing number who wish to turn leisure into a science. I feel like a guy who competes against Olympic Bobsledders (gridcounters) while sitting on my plastic trash can lid (the rest of us fools). If I have to invest in a million dollar, wind-tunnel built, freak of nature Snow Bullet-sled to take a plunge down a hill, the fun factor will be going downhill with me.

    Please keep it fun for those of us who just want to play. Thanks for listening.

    Tim Fabian
    aka Timinator

    #38540

    pr1mat3
    Participant

    apache64d: “…u call using a cheating tool inteligent??”

    lol, I guess using tools is cheating, and anyone who uses a mouse instead of only keyboard is banned on apache’s servers; using the ‘a’ button is forbidden too for this “purist” (idiot)

    pastor of muppets: “…I join to play I play to win and I do it all for fun. “

    If someone really wants to win, they will grid at least some of the time, because it works. If you don’t care about winning, then don’t bitch about gridding. If you do care about winning, like Tnick, then you would take advantage of the freely available info that the game provides. Everyone accounts for wind, right? Why not also account for squares and contours, which the game also provides to you?

    NP-the outlaw: “pr1mat3 wrote ‘I am fascinated with this game, not the the gameplay…..’
    ok the statement above was quite disturbing. “

    Yep dude, I already uninstalled it. I am not going to play again, the mystery is all gone. This game is played out for me, and I’m ok with it. So nobody needs to worry about showing up on my grid. I’m done with Scorched 3d. Have to say, though, in my not-insubstantial gaming experience, this game rules.

    “…how is it really possible to count that far away when I know from experience that the target is in the range of 850-950 power away.”

    it would take me and my system 2 turns, counting fast, to get the input data. I’d have to miss at least 1 shot

    “…the mini-map maybe the real culprit”

    Not accurate enough. Same with rulers; square counting is the only measurement that is accurate. Everything else is inaccurate due to relativity factors (including screenshots where I measured pixels in Photoshop from tank to tank with high precision). Counting squares is the only way; turning off the grid would kill this strat. Using rulers on the full map, minimap, or a screenshot is ~70-80% accurate (not enough)

    Brain Damage- thank you for addressing the technical issue. You sound like a smart guy

    “…distance to the target, wind speed, wind direction, elevation…”
    distance to target and elevation are trivial, assuming all squares are equal within a given map, and assuming distance between two contours either (a) equals 5 power units or (b) equals the width of one square for that respective map. Wind is altogether impossible to calculate, due to the inability to accurately measure its orientation (at what degree you are shooting into/with the wind)

    “…the grid & the minimap can accomplish such tasks”

    never tested the minimap, but I expect it is inaccurate due to its large scope. Probably wouldn’t be bad for a rough guess (see above re Photoshop pixel-to-pixel measurement)

    “…it would be impossible to count within the shot time by eye, a ruler or similar tool would be requied to measure the distance fast”

    It is hard. It takes skill to do it quick, get your input data calculated, adjust your tank settings, and then press ‘P’ then ‘space’. Short to medium shots (power<600) can be calculated within a turn. Long shots will require at least 1 missed turn to get the data. Rulers are inaccurate (see above, minimap, photoshop pixel-to-pixel measurement). Make no mistake, gridding is a skill, and the first shot is the hardest. You have to decide in the first second if you are going to grid the shot or freestyle. Across my 20 rounds I was shooting freestyle at least 70% of the time. Only 2 or 3 of my gridded kills were first shots; most were 4th/5th.

    “…math is not required to produce a distance-over-square table, you can just experiment with all wind conditions, shoot, and take note the distance in squares where your projectile lands”

    true, and for that fixed angle look up the nearest power unit. Kinda like using a slide rule for logarithms. I have simply streamlined that process by plotting that data, doing regression analysis to produce the plot’s equation, and plugging in the variables. Basically the same thing; instead of looking up a distance on a power chart, I get a number spit out from Excel

    Deathbal: “Also, steroids in Pro sports can be considered “taking it to another level” as well, but you see that frowned upon right?”

    You could also say that the U.S. military is at another level than, say, the Iraqi Republican Guard was when Gulf War part deux ensued. So is the U.S. military cheating, by using advanced military technology? It’s not my fault that you can’t or won’t take advantage of naturally occurring data that the game provides. Is it cheating for one sprinter to be faster than another, or one chess player to be able to look more moves ahead?

    “…Thats why I play. For days like that. Can you say the same?”

    No. I don’t play anymore. We have played this game for different reasons.

    apache64d: “…why the heck nobody removed that very detailed grid? Tired that im considered the “bad guy” after im blocking topic that screams “cheating!”

    You are the bad guy for your attempt at censorship. You are not the decider of what is or is not an unfair advantage. (ass)

    Timinator: “…Grids are disabled completely on the main servers”

    Timinator, I hated you online, but your post screams rationality. You are correct- without a grid, this entire point is moot. Gridding is simply taking advantage, quite fairly I believe, of ALL the data the game tell you, not just wind and your gut feeling of distance/height/aim.

    Even with gridding you still have to use your gut for the miniscule corrections necessary to get the baby missile kill. That is why this game is so cool; it strongly resists reverse engineering/regression analysis. The game engine itself doesn’t know where shots are going to hit. The engine just does what it does when a shot intercepts a tank model.

    Again, my tool is freely available off rapidshare.com (see locked post) or pm me and I’ll email). It is not a failsafe kill; it only works under limited circumstances and many factors can interfere with its pure calculations.

    I guess it is moot to expect any technical analysis of the tool itself… sigh… oh well, enjoy the game. It is pretty fun, congrats Gavin Camp

    #38541

    Chopper
    Participant

    Good riddance….I got in the top ten without gridding……too bad you arent going to stick around and play the old fashioned way. It would be fun. 😆

    #38542

    Timinator
    Participant

    Not sure if that is a compliment in this game or not, but I guess I’ll try to convey the image of a kinder, gentler, Tim. Perhaps I will let others pick my new name…

    A) Mr. Rogers
    B) Dr. Feelgood
    C) Mommy Theresa
    D) TIMMY!

    As for your thoughts….I can’t argue that if the grid tool is there, it’s use is legitimate. My point is that if everyone utilized the grids, the game would not be as fun. The instinctual nature of the game would lose some of it’s integrity. For me, the greatest rush in the game is when you have that #5 cross tail wind and you manage to land a roller in just the right spot along a far side cliff. I just believe that if I had a scientific method to achieve that, as opposed to an instinctual one, the fun factor would not be as significant. After all, what would the surprise be? I KNEW it was going to land there.

    #38543

    Willis
    Participant

    @pr1mat3 wrote:

    If someone really wants to win, they will grid at least some of the time, because it works. If you don’t care about winning, then don’t bitch about gridding. If you do care about winning, like Tnick, then you would take advantage of the freely available info that the game provides. Everyone accounts for wind, right? Why not also account for squares and contours, which the game also provides to you?

    Um, your conclusion contradicts itself, and is humorous to say the least. It’s like playing chess and following EVERY move someone else tells you to make.. and then celebrating your greatness when you win. Well news flash, you didn’t win! Why? You didn’t even play!

    You cannot sit there and claim to care about winning in a game you never even played. But by all means the opponent(s) have the right to complain about being cheated from victory.

    @pr1mat3 wrote:

    I am fascinated with this game, not the the gameplay

    How sad.

    @pr1mat3 wrote:

    Yep dude, I already uninstalled it. I am not going to play again, the mystery is all gone.

    I never thought to say this but… Thank you for removing the game.

    @pr1mat3 wrote:

    You are the bad guy for your attempt at censorship. You are not the decider of what is or is not an unfair advantage. (ass)

    We (administrators) all have different opinions and may not always see eye to eye.. but Apache IS (like every other admin) a spokesperson for the administrators. Who when it comes to the official servers ARE decider’s. And although there are times when opinions of admins and/or the community differ, this subject seems to be very well agreed upon. If there is someone who hates apache’s statement, by all means they (NOT YOU) will be speaking up.

    *goes back to point of topic*

    I think we don’t need a new server. That raises all sorts of questions about size and style, beginner or main, and whether or not Gavin can support another server on his end (probably no problems… but its an important factor to consider).

    Just disable them on all the official servers, hopefully that will put a hurt on these people and make them learn the hard (good) way.. trusting their gut and using their head. Not some tool.

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