This topic contains 10 replies, has 0 voices, and was last updated by  Deathbal 10 years, 5 months ago.

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  • #5527

    Guardian Angel
    Participant

    Not sure if this topic related to ‘general and gameplay’, or may be ‘player and server complaints’? Decided to post it here…

    I dont like the scoring way that is now used at the main server…

    I think that round-winning score should be linked with number of kills during round…
    I saw games when some noob became winner without a single kill because other players were concerned about killing each other.

    I dont think its fair.
    My idea is to have small score for winning itself and additional score to each kill you got if you are a winner.

    For example, 30 pts for just victory – that means you did almost nothing this round – what to reward?

    And if you got a kill, you have extra 20 points to that kill.
    So winner with 1 kill gets 50 pts. Winner with 2 – 70, 3 – 90…

    I think it is more fair then when some occasional persons come ahead.

    The way of economic policy at the main server is also a thing that i don’t like at all. Let me explain why.

    First, you don’t have to be a good player, don’t have to kill to have a lot of money in the last rounds.

    Second, general concern on saving money makes game too standard and predictable

    It develops this way: 2nd and 3rd round small weapons, many kills with diggers, usage of heavy weapons is occasional.
    Then by mid game we observe more heavy weapons, and some leading players buy shields, this is a short period when the game is what it should be, imho.

    By this time, players who served mostly as targets, get enough money to join the bubble-funky club.
    But what did they do to get these weapons and shields? Nothing, just being there.

    Then several final rounds – plenty of bubbles, funkies, and 9-10 – also dhs and teleports…

    This money saving practice… I had real problems with it when appeared here after a long long time… coudn’t get it, why I play good buy have less money than even those who are much worse… Had to ask about it, was taught (thank you hobbes)

    Yeah I got the idea and now i’m the money-saver also… But I dont like it at all.

    I remember playing 3 years ago…
    It was standard for me to buy full pack of chutes, baby hogs, rollers – without selling anything, and I would LEAD games, and I would WIN games with this… I earned money with making kills, so I could buy a dh when saw a good chance to use it, and most players around kept to the same policy.

    But here, now… I had to learn some things I don’t remember.

    1. Less money for kill with expensive weapon
    WHY?????????
    Weapon is expensive, so when you buy it, you spend money. Why losing money second time – on getting less award?
    If you are confident in your skills go on, use baby missile where someone else needs nuke to make sure…

    The influence of “MCB” players is way too much…
    I don’t mind playing an MCB game with Sabi and Vihor to kick my aiming skills up… simply because often when I have time to play and come to the server, they are here, and I am conformal enough to accept their rules though i prefer ffa…
    A little digression… As for Vihor and Sabi, they are both great players in ffa game… but i met many people bothered too much about playing mcb… they lose ffa game with emotional remarks about “stupid hogs” and “stupid funks”… and those who win are also “stupid”, of course…
    But, sorry, I want to ask, why don’t you use them as well? Must be because these “stupid” weapons require some thinking, how to use them? And that is beyond using ruler and calculator? Because you need mind, a thing that you don’t have at all?
    And there are too many of such people… So I wonder – this big-weapon-less-award practice – is it a concession to them?…

    Again, why is it less awarded? It brings a message – use only baby missiles, use only baby missiles, use only baby missiles.

    We support it, communism, being dull, grey, ordinary.

    It is like – dont wear bright clothes, dont drive cool cars, dont date beautiful girls…

    In general… this game – Scorched3d – is interesting because of variety, many ways to kill, many interesting weapon…
    But baby missiles… What is spectacular in such game? Nothing! Where is fun? No fun!

    This less-award is like a PENALTY. It is like stating that these weapons are bad. Again, WHY?

    2. Less money for multi-kill.
    In fact, there was no such thing as multi-kill… they simply wrote “killed with” several times.

    As if it is easy – to make a multi-kill. Who says that?
    Plenty of funkies and deathheads in last rounds always, but so few real multikills.

    I really, really cant get the point. Multi-kill is not easy.

    Lets think, what events in game make all people express their feelings with exclamations?
    Yes! Multi-kills, especially, great ones.

    Sometimes it is just luck.
    But we all know that there are players who perform such actions on a regular basis.

    And I like these players in the game, I respect such players, I enjoy it when they are playing.

    What do you need to perform a multi-kill?
    You must consider the location of all players,
    You must consider their skills, habits, ability to perform shots, ability to get that multi-kill or kill your multi-kill ‘components’ separately before you do it
    You must consider their economic state and what weapon they might have, and might use
    You must consider their relations with other players – current – caused by in-game competition, and general
    You must consider your targets – if they are also capable to kill each other before you get them, or any is going to teleport or drive away, and does this person really able to escape this way
    You must consider what you could learn about others state, relations and intentions from chat
    You must aim and perform your own shot, and especially if it is a funky shot, you need high accuracy, because multi-kill with funky is an art

    And you have only 35 seconds for all that!!!

    So, who can say that multi-kill is easy?

    THIS MUST BE REWARDED!

    But people get few money for this. People earn money by saving them.

    Award REAL ACTIONS, not stupid presence.

    My proposal is to make all kills and multi-kills awarded the same scale.
    To reduce interest rate to 5%.
    To support possible poor players everyone should receive about $3-5k each round.

    What changes we will observe?

    People will stop saving money and think how to get real kills.
    Shields, funkies, dhs, teleports will not be the feature of last rounds.
    People will use them in any round, and not everyone – everything, like we have it, but somebody – something.
    So the game will be more balanced, no standard course, never know what to expect, more variety, more thinking, guessing, analysing, inventions.

    IMHO.

    #42266

    Willis
    Participant

    First and foremost, your idea about the round-win style is interesting. I think the game style is fairly balanced right now but it’s an interesting suggestion.

    It is balanced because – I’ll play off of your example – your player who won the round without a single kill, may or may not get future kills while other players do. And 3-4 kills is the equivalent of 1 round win. So that small jump ahead is balanced by the lack of future work.

    Now if they do kill and do win in the future, more power to them. This game is not one sided by nature that whoever does the most work wins. It’s about patience, luck, and timing. If you WANT to win, it’s about knowing your targets and knowing the flow of the round. Often times people who constantly win over and over, do you know why? It’s because the people who can shoot and take them down quickly, don’t try. And when they do these people (those who win games often) are already 2-3 shots ahead of the opponent and are bound to be the victor.

    But thats the beauty of it. It’s not all about what 1 person does it’s about what everyone does or lack there of. If people didn’t want someone like Vihor to come out on top with kills often (as we know hes got skills) then people would target him (as I do.. sorry Vihor 😆 ).



    Next issue.. the idea that game play is dull and predictable. I’m sorry to inform you but you can look at any mod in scorched, or any GAME for that matter – and you will find some style of pattern and it becomes “predictable”. Does not matter if it is an TBS, RTS, FPS, or what have you… people learn over time what works the best, and they stick with it.

    It’s the natural rhythm of a game and something that can never be avoided. Even if you were to shake things around and entirely change around the game play on Scorched.. over time people will find some common flow and stick with it.



    Next issue.. Weapon cost vs Weapon reward. I don’t know how to approach this delicately so I’m just going to say it… make a mod if you don’t like the current game style.

    I’m sorry but this part of your post feels more like crying and complaining. Higher class weapons yes take some skill, but the idea and what your paying for is the fact that the weapon is now EASIER to shoot. Easier to get a kill. (not killS, kill.)

    Why such a low reward? Ever hear of Balance? People need to manage their spending otherwise they go broke. Thats the whole point. People who get a larger sum of money and can afford these high class weapons, do you really want to give them enough money return to just go buy more? It then produces a never ending cycle of high-level explosives from round 2->10. They get the high explosives, maybe get a kill or two, but then have to go back to smaller weapons.

    As to your suggestion of changes.. again make a mod! It sounds interesting and has some balance, but your going on the idea that this game is all about kills. Economy is part of this game, learning how to manage your spending and your ability to make kills. People can buy high class weapons if and whenever they wish, they just need to accept the results of their actions.

    #42267

    Brain Damage
    Participant

    the issue you repsent about the money system is not the usage of interest itself, it’s his exponential nature that leads it the way it current is.

    as willis mentioned above, making big weapons to have high rewards would make sure that small weapons will never be used, becuase you’ll be able to achive even higher rewards using an “inaccurate” weapon, so why even bothering with a small one? off course you’ll have the trade-off between number of weapons and reward, but this implementation would force they money system to even more exponential way as in more big is the weapon you just used, more big will be the one you’ll use in next round.

    also this will lead to even more crucial first round, i would probably just buy a big weapon and then shoot it if i’ll be sure i’ll achive a kill; this isn’t always possible, it’s realted to the position and the map type, wich are both random; so in the end, it would enphatize the randomness of the inital round to influence the game winner.

    the only change IMHO that would REALLY influence the shape of the exponential tendency of the cash flow, is a reduction of the number of rounds per game.

    the benefits would be:

    either you use a kill-rewarding economy or a interests-rewarding economy, the amount of cash that players accumulate will be capped by the number of rounds.

    if a player joins in the middle-late of the game, he won’t have to face opponents who had many,many rounds to accumulate money

    off course players would adapt to this situation, maybe saving more, or spreading better the cash usage over the rounds, but will also make more viable the usage of “high” (high compared to the actual condition) amounts of money in early rounds to achive gap that will hopefully not be filled because not enought rounds will be played afterwards.

    #42268

    Deathbal
    Participant

    Getting a round win, in my opinion, is harder than getting a kill. So I like the way it’s scored on the Main server. But I can see your point on the way they score it on beginners server. But like Willis said, winning a game and a round does not only depend on you. A lot of other factors are involved. To many people, that is the beauty of the game.

    The only gripe I would have concerning money is I do not believe you should recieve cash for winning a round. I’m not saying you don’t deserve it, I just think it gives the early round winners too much of an advantage.

    The only other gripe I have are with funky bombs. The top 3 players kill more with them than any other weapon. It’s also the weapon of choice for noobs. I’m not saying they shouldn’t be there, I just think they should be same price as a Death Head. I’ve seen on many occasions a player does well in the first 2 rounds, build up a lot of money. Then all you have to do is shield up, buy 2 funkies a round and you kick some butt. The interest on the money not spent is enough to replenish your ability to do this round after round. But this is just my opinion. Other than those two things, I think the game is perfect.

    On another interesting note. About a week ago I was playing and I killed someone with a baby hog. I forget who it was. I didn’t recognize the name. But similar to what Angel said, I got “Ugh a hog” Now I really don’t mind if someone says that. It’s no big deal. But don’t say it after you shot at me and missed with a funky bomb. I found that to be comical at best!

    #42269

    BOY
    Participant

    hmmm, i recall this discussion already.

    http://www.scorched3d.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3646

    Dear Guardian Angel, thank you for bringing this to our attention. I think you and I have the same mind 🙂

    Scoring for main server with no bots:

    SCOREPERMONEY 0
    SCOREPERASSIST 6
    SCOREPERKILL 30
    SCOREWONFORROUND 100
    SCOREWONFORLIVES 0

    This is a good scoring mode for the server. However, after I looked I found that the BEGINNERS server has different settings which appear to be by mistake. SCOREWONFORLIVES 250. It is funny that one one has meantioned it till now.

    This causes the other scores to be insignificant. I will check into making a change for you.

    (all settings can be viewed for all servers at the servers page links)

    #42270

    naka
    Participant

    The current scoring balance on the main server is a verry verry good.
    but i think that SCORE FOR ROUND won have to be a little bit smaller.

    The question maybe is not how many point must be for a ROUND won , but

    how many kills are equal for 1 round?
    currently
    1 round = 3.3 kills

    the good balance maybe is somewhere between 2 kills and 3.3 kills
    1 round = [2 – 3.3] kills

    when you play on the main with a lot good players often you have chances for 1 shoot only. I dream for having 2nd shoot. to make 2 kills in a round is verry rare.

    #42271

    Guardian Angel
    Participant

    Thank you for detailed replies and your viewpoints.

    @willis wrote:

    Now if they do kill and do win in the future, more power to them. This game is not one sided by nature that whoever does the most work wins. It’s about patience, luck, and timing. If you WANT to win, it’s about knowing your targets and knowing the flow of the round. Often times people who constantly win over and over, do you know why? It’s because the people who can shoot and take them down quickly, don’t try. And when they do these people (those who win games often) are already 2-3 shots ahead of the opponent and are bound to be the victor.

    I can’t agree with the statement… I win games often DESPITE many people trying hard to get me… Yes I know why – getting a lot of kills. Sometimes being supressed so much that winning game without a single round victory, all only due to kills.

    All true about knowing targets and flow of the round. It is very importaint and also often happens majority shoots at one guy who seems the most dangerous by that moment, and another guy with good skills kills them one by one while they don’t shoot each other and only the one whose existance scares them so much.

    So there is a phenomenon… If you play for a while, win couple games in turn, people learn that you are danger. Then comes somebody else, very good, and uses the situation and wins easily because you’ve been mass-supressed.

    They come for only 1 game and steal my game-victories!

    I hate it 👿 :mrgreen:

    But when I dont play several for hours, come only for 1 game… I suspect I do the same to somebody else…

    It’s the natural rhythm of a game and something that can never be avoided.

    Here I can’t agree at all. I referred to the game we had 3 years ago, I played much some time. I don’t know how many times changes were made since that time, once or more, and what was the reason… You dinosaur also, but if you been here all this time you probably can’t remember what it was like in some peculiar period.
    But I do.
    I wrote about it above. Even with good playing and money saving – I mean Ebo – I don’t remember him having more than $200k in last round…
    And now, playing MCB game (so no need to buy lot), $500k in last one is usual!

    So this example shows that it can be changed.

    I’m sorry but this part of your post feels more like crying and complaining.

    You got it right!

    Let me tell you the usual way of game developing that I have…
    I get about 15 kills in first 5-6 rounds, and then…

    These people around, they have already enough money to buy something every round and have the same or even greater cash in the next no matter how they use it.

    And there come funkies!
    I receive 5 funkies at every first shot of the round. In fact, all 5 shots are bad. But they destroy mountain to the base, make me fall down, and there 5th gets me… though it wouldnt otherwise.

    I’m the leader or one of them, I also earn money and in fact have more than others. But all these things I can buy, shields, teleports, fuel – they can prolong my life only if I got a lucky placement. Otherwise, how can this all help against 5 funkies?

    What I usually get in later rounds, is 1 kill per round, my first and the only shot.

    But thats only half of all joy.

    Then there are long 11 turns… after me and a couple of strong opponents are killed, I have to contemplate the vain tryings…
    And finally 4 round winners! Because they were unable to kill each other!
    They got that round victory, and benefit to their cash and interest, BECAUSE OF BAD SKILLS! REWARDED FOR AWFULLY BAD PLAYING!

    And this repeats, next round, one more, until the end. (Yes sometimes I get this chance to survive… And to kill many. But in general…)

    So it makes my average 20 kills per game in the end. And I usually win, had some game victories without a single round victory, cause my kills number outweighed the score others get for their stupid “rounds won”…
    But not always… Yesterday, there was a game, a guy won who had far less kills then rounds won… LOL.

    The game must have a culture, somehow encouraging people to improve their skills… But not this way! They have fun, why do they need to try?

    And many people play just for these last rounds, it is their time to have fun.

    Once I even saw a player… he was not in the game… he was busy with something else. Only switched window to Scorched to make shot in order not to be kicked. I paid special attention to his shots… he didnt even tried to get someone for the first half of the game. They were – shots somewhere. And sure he couldn’t reply my questions. He simply didn’t see them.

    But then he appeared, marked his presence by joining the conversation, began to aim – to the extent of his skills, began to shoot (read – to funk)…

    That was isolated instance… yet… but it says in general.
    Though many others do not miss first rounds so obviously, they in fact simply wait for the second part of the game.

    This is the phenomenon caused by current economic settings.

    Why such a low reward? Ever hear of Balance?

    Yeah, I heard of Balance… That is what my whole post about… we speak about the same thing but see it way different… heh.

    It then produces a never ending cycle of high-level explosives from round 2->10.

    In fact, now we have a never changing period of high-level explosives since round 5-6…
    I cant deny the truth of your reason, but I think you exaggerate in estimating the consequences of the way that I proposed.

    Economy is part of this game, learning how to manage your spending and your ability to make kills.

    I can’t agree at all. There is no economy. Leave as much as you can – that is all.
    There is an interesting topic, about free market… if they make it so that people can earn money by trading weapons, that really requires some sort of thinking – it would be great.
    But what it is now… no, it is not economy.

    Yeah, sometimes in mid rounds leading players have to decide – to buy a shield and try to survive this, or not to buy?
    And here is the risk of your opponent getting ahead with his cash if you bought that shield and got killed after first shot, so having less money that it was…

    @boy wrote:

    This causes the other scores to be insignificant. I will check into making a change for you.

    LOL! THANK YOU! :mrgreen: In fact, I never joined the beginners server yet.
    But I’m so bad player… one of the worst players here… all indexes are one of the worst… skill ratio… kill ratio… kills per hour… time played/games won… Yeah may be going to beginners will be good. I must consider it!

    Being serious, everything I said related to the main server only. I don’t know at all about the beginners situation, so can’t analyse it and state opinion.

    @Brain Damage wrote:

    @deathbal wrote:

    @naka wrote:

    Er… I sure want to reply to all this also, but it is 2 a.m. now, and I wrote so many replies already… So now I don’t know what to say 😯 . Sorry for such half-reply… I’ll try to do it tomorrow.

    #42272

    BOY
    Participant

    The Main server scoring is set very well, like Naka said. I think however, that you shoudl consider many of the other methods of scoring, which I have discussed in various other places and don’t care to repeat right now. 😛

    Best way to Score:

    Only score is from money. (think about it) 😉

    Even a newcomer to the game can have a chance to win!

    Everything you buy is a risk to your score

    Even interest gains you a score (but interest should not be too high or this ruins everything)

    All kills wins assist and all actions lead to an affect on the score.

    #42273

    Guardian Angel
    Participant

    @boy wrote:

    The Main server scoring is set very well, like Naka said.

    LOL, politicians all around!

    But Naka also said:

    @naka wrote:

    but i think that SCORE FOR ROUND won have to be a little bit smaller.

    Well there is a ‘score at main servers topic’, I’ll go there with my suggestions.

    Still all about money here.

    After Willis and BD had explained the neccesity of penalising big weapons award, now I agree with its validity.
    (and now I even see the role of it in the course of game that I would like to see at main).

    But in the conditions of current main server settings, these things dont work at all after about 5th round.
    When funky rounds begin.
    Person must only gain $80k, then buy 2 funkies, and no matter what the consequences of usage are, that player again has no less $80k in next round. So again 2 funkies…

    Nobody cares at all, does the weapon bring high reward or low… cause interest is the source of money.

    I looked at the stats of weapons usage. Well I must say I knew it, but after seeing the figures.
    Its awful.

    There are more funkies used than many other (very good in fact!) weapons taken together.

    And it is the consequence of this peculiar economy.

    Funky is panacea! (Rollers go as well… being put into deep holes, created with bad funky-shots…)
    What is the reason to buy any other weapon if people have enough money for funky? NO REASON.

    And finally, in rounds 9 and 10, these no-less-than-80k money lead to mass-force shields usage.
    And at this point it is obvious that without many funks nobody can play at all, dhs are too expensive, and napalms and rollers are optional.

    So I repeat, from about round 5-6 with these plenty funkies, I see the game monotonous and uninteresting.
    ALL BECAUSE OF WRONG ECONOMY!

    But, without this excessive interest, the PENALISING about which Willis and BD wrote, would work. People would have to consider, shall they really use it? Because, in fact, many of funky shots are bad (taking into account their well-known propertes). And people do know it. Still using funkies cause they are the best, and no problems with money.

    But I don’t agree with DB that funky price should be increased so much, well a little may be, but not up to dh price.
    Its popularity must be limited by small amount of money earned. Because current excessing popularity is caused rather by economy that by funky properties itself.

    But, speaking about multi-kills – I think in these cases funky should work off its price.
    Multi-kills do require real skill, or luck.

    So, summing up – I see the solution in reducing interest and increasing the amount of money given due to labour.
    Multi-kill award must be increased.

    Of course it must require to try some variants of settings to find the one creating the less predictable course of game.

    I can’t agree with BD that reducing the number of rounds is the ONLY solution. I think this way it must be better.

    #42274

    Ebonite
    Participant

    1.) There is no multi-kill award at present. Just a notification of a multi-kill. Money is awarded to a multi-kill the same as a single kill.

    2.) Weapon “Free Market” economy needs to be open-ended. Let the demand for particular weapons set the price. This will both limit the “spam” weapons like funkys, and force players to try other, cheaper weapons, thus re-introducing variety into the game. Defence economy should remain capped, else Parachutes will end up at $999K.

    #42275

    BigBear
    Participant

    Score based on money: I really don’t like the concept. In the context of this game money is a mean to an end (ie to aquire items) and not the other way around. The economical system is a flavour to the game, not the main attraction. That’s all I’ve got to say about that.

    Free uncapped market: I have not exactly followed the thread(s) discussing how this could be revamped, but uncapping the weapons with the current version would create a really absurd situation. Even weapons that aren’t used a fraction as much as for example funkies hit the cap and don’t go down. If a truly free market was to be implemented the imbalance between prices going up/down has to be evened out.

    When it comes to funkies and hogs it seems to me that easiest solution is not adjusting prices, but rather nerfing their redicilous uber power qualities. The second best way imo would be setting a really low base price on fuel and shields. To me it makes no sense at all that the only viable counter measures are much more expensive than the weapon. In fact with the current economical system I find that the base prices (which are all that matters since the cap is 1.5 times the base price) seem almost arbitrary in respect to the usefulness of the items for waaaay too many of them.

    #42276

    Deathbal
    Participant

    @Guardian Angel wrote:

    But I don’t agree with DB that funky price should be increased so much, well a little may be, but not up to dh price.
    Its popularity must be limited by small amount of money earned. Because current excessing popularity is caused rather by economy that by funky properties itself.

    An interesting concept I will admit. To lower interest on money saved to like 10% and raise the money earned for kills and multi kill. But keep Funkies at very little per kill.

    A good idea but…..it seems to heavily favor early round winners. More so than it is now. This way, a person that gets 3 kills in the first round can afford to waste 18k on funkies while players with 0 kills cannot.

    I admit my idea is a simple minded one. But all I was trying to accomplish was to get a better balance. What if 2 force shields were 18k? Wouldn’t you agree that it would be too low? Right now if funkies were 30k, they would be even with heavy hogs. Which would you spend 30k on? That should tell you something.

    I like a DH now and then. But I paid for it.
    If I win the first round with 4 kills, get about 80k, what is stopping me from buying 2 funkies and cleaning up a few unshielded players in round 2? I don’t do it because it’s cheap and easy.

    I just think it would be better if no one cared when a funky was used. How to achieve that is the question. Right now I think the balance is slightly off with funkies that powerful at that price. Another idea, instead of raising price to 30k, lower bomblets from 12-6.

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