This topic contains 65 replies, has 0 voices, and was last updated by  cbx550f 10 years, 5 months ago.

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  • #4904

    BigBear
    Participant

    I just wanted to debate something that’s been bothering me for a while. With a score of 250 pts for a round win, the kill and assist scores seem redicilously low in my opinion.

    I’ve been playing at servers with W=35 pts, K=10 pts and A=2 pts. Even with these settings the emphasis will still be on rnd wins, but at least kills CAN make a difference.

    Opinions?

    #34676

    BOY
    Participant

    we already went over this in another thread and the score is set up that way to achieve the same results as the old system of scoring.

    with a tie in round wins the win will certainly go to the player with most kills, then to assists (or, now money too).

    It is a flawed way to score… a game I like to call RUNAROUNDTHEMAP3D.

    The incentive to survive so far outweights the incentive to kill tanks, that gameplay suffers. Its simply the way it has always been. 😉

    #34677

    BigBear
    Participant

    @boy wrote:

    we already went over this in another thread and the score is set up that way to achieve the same results as the old system of scoring.

    with a tie in round wins the win will certainly go to the player with most kills, then to assists (or, now money too).

    It is a flawed way to score… a game I like to call RUNAROUNDTHEMAP3D.

    I understand the idea behind this, it’s just that I think it’s too bad that the potential strategies to win are so severely limited. Good name for it btw. 😉

    @boy wrote:

    The incentive to survive so far outweights the incentive to kill tanks, that gameplay suffers. Its simply the way it has always been. 😉

    Even though I find such arguments amusing, they are completely unacceptable as a base for making a descision or mark a position in a debate. If anyone has a good argument as to why this way is better then please post it, but please refrain from such pointless remarks (and yes BOY I did get the sarcasm so this is not directed towards you).

    #34678

    BOY
    Participant

    Even though I find such arguments amusing, they are completely unacceptable as a base for making a descision or mark a position in a debate.

    which argument? that gameplay suffers? or that it has always been this way?

    #34679

    BigBear
    Participant

    Definately the latter one! Sloppy copy ‘n paste on my part! 😳

    #34680

    Willis
    Participant

    @bigbear wrote:

    …If anyone has a good argument as to why this way is better then please post it, but please refrain from such pointless remarks (and yes BOY I did get the sarcasm so this is not directed towards you).

    To be honest BigBear, it takes a LOT of work to survive in a round (pending competition, of course). Not only do you have to fight against bad locations, live past the rollers-funkies-mirvs-etc, but also live past those who WANT you dead.

    In a well evened match, and your leading the pack… trust me there will be someone who will go out of thier way to stop you from getting even further ahead. So surviving to the end of a round deserves a good reward.

    Also.. how often do you see the winner of a game (by wins) not the leader of kills or close to it? Sure maybe thier 2-3 behind but, that’s not too much and it really depends on how many players we’re talkin about. Often in games I see, wether they win by rounds or win by kills.. wouldn’t have made much of a difference.



    That being said, let me change my position and say I support the basics of this idea.

    250 for a win
    10 for a kill
    2 for a assit

    Really dosn’t seem fair. it takes a person 25 kills just to match one person’s win.

    if we used 10 for a kill and 2 for an assist as a standard… then have it be 50 pts for a win. IMO.

    #34681

    BOY
    Participant

    okay willis, nobody ever said surviving didn’t take skill – perhaps surviving meant you had to kill 5 guys….

    but, think about the situations we’ve had with self dirters. Is raising the price of dirt the solution. no, it is a symptom of the problem that round wins are worth too much. There is no skill in self dirting, but yet people have to go and shoot them to keep them from winning. This diminishes the skill in winning tactics imo.

    before I paste my ultimate post about incentives….

    when kills are worth the greatest points, killing the point leader is still the same…. and the incentive to hide must be then balanced with the need to get more kills.

    if kill and win points were reversed, how does that not display the true best player?

    example:

    Kills 7 ($10K)
    Wins 3 ($20K)
    Assist 1

    Think about it

    #34682

    Willis
    Participant

    @boy wrote:

    if kill and win points were reversed, how does that not display the true best player?

    We can look at the funkie throwers… and often those who get placed in lucky spawns to get a gurenteed kill or two. Dosn’t mean their the best skilled, just means thier very fortunate.

    Lets consider the average game then … on a good day, someone fairly experienced, may go… on a basis of 10 rounds..

    12 kills / 2 Assists / 3 Wins

    Using your example of

    Kills 7 ($10K)
    Wins 3 ($20K)
    Assist 1

    Thats 84 pts from Kills
    9 Pts from wins
    2 pts from assists

    We completely reverse the role and make a game soly dependent on kills. Which personally does not define skill. If we had to decide between game win via round wins, or game win via kills… I’d stick with the first choice.

    So We need to find a balance.

    And that balance… ratio of kills to round wins, needs to have multiple-kills:1round.

    #34683

    Deathstryker
    Participant

    Why the hell do we even have assists anyway?

    This wasn’t in the original game and no one complained about it not being there. Everytime assists come up, there’s some sort of unresolved argument about it.

    #34684

    Willis
    Participant

    Psst, this isn’t about assists. 😉

    #34685

    BOY
    Participant

    1. no, the game is not solely based on kills that way, 9/84 roughly 10% of total points. you also forget that the round winner gets a handsome cash reward in my example.

    2. Lucky spawns are a great point, one that I contend has more to do with winning the round than lucky kills, Such as DOING NOTHING, and winning.

    3. FUnky killers might have earned that money. (hmmm, like winning the round eh?) The issue here is the incentive to kill. How the kill is achieved is not at issue here. More significant to your argument is that you are actually making arguing that kills take no skill. As everyone knows, funkys are too cheap to begin with. So, dodging funkies apparently defines skill more so than killing with them?

    THis is backwards from how the game should be played. If dodging is the primary skill, that is not scorched.

    A balance does need to be achieved,

    Now, how about this

    Kill 50 ($5K)
    Win 10 ($25K)
    assist 0
    (assume funkies are more expensive too 😉 , or say… non existant 😉 )

    or put on your thinking cap, this:

    Kill-0 ($5K)
    Win-0 ($20K)
    assist- 0
    money- 1 pt per 1,000 in bank

    *rubs hands together*

    #34686

    Deathstryker
    Participant

    @willis wrote:

    Psst, this isn’t about assists. 😉

    I’ll just quietly exit the room now.

    #34687

    BigBear
    Participant

    I never meant to imply that winning rounds does not take skill. What I was trying to say was that with the current score system surviving is the ONLY strategy that is really awarded. Exactly how many kills that should be needed to equal a round win can be debated, but at least it should be possible.

    Since I haven’t played any games with the scheme BOY suggests I can’t really say much about what impact it would have, so for the moment I’ll refrain from taking a stance to that idea. There are so many factors that decide how the game is played that the effect of such a big shift is impossible to predict. How about testing it on a separate server or in a tournament?

    I just have to comment on the funkies. They are not underpriced in my opinion. In most games they don’t come into play until round 5. Why? Becasue if you buy them early you will mess up your economy so bad that you can’t afford them in the later rounds when you would have needed them. I claim that shooting a well placed funky that will result in a guaranteed kill requires skill. I’m probably one of the more prolific funkers around and I seriously doubt that half of the players here could duplicate the return I get from them (sorry if sounding conceited, but I believe it’s true at the present).

    #34688

    BOY
    Participant

    in light of the fact that a funky can get 3+ kills on players without shields, or destroy a shield that is worth $22,500 plus kill the tank for the fantastic price of $9,000, and quite easily if your even a decent shooter, they seem a bit too cheap to me.

    If they aren’t too easy, then why does willis suggest that it takes no skill to shoot one? Second, why do players so often play with MCB rules and other rules. Isn’t it because the games are more challenging. It sure seems that way to me.

    A DH is 30K, but gets about 3 kills with a good shot. A funky is only 9K but gets about the same number of kills, with perhaps even less skill to shoot.

    FYI, smallweapons mod has always been run the way I suggest – I don’t demand that all settings be my way at the main. If anyone rememebers the tournament game that started that mod, those games were the hardest faught games I’ve ever played.

    I will also be changing the settings for the server (now to host sniper mod) and hope to have it back up for 40.1 by tomorrow with the followoing settings

    Kills 10 or more points
    Assists and wins… 0 points
    money on hand will be the tie breaker.
    round wins will be worth the most money.

    #34689

    BigBear
    Participant

    Damn! Hijacking my own thread, but I have to comment. 😉

    3+ kills with a funky is extremly rare, especially since version 40. Imo funkies are slightly less deadly now compared to v. 39.1, which I find to be a good thing. Just because it can kill a shield does not mean it will. A heavy digger can kill the same shield too if shot just right. In any case I consider fuel to be a more effective defence against attack than a shield. Cheaper too for that matter.

    No offense intended to BOY or Willis, but just because you say it takes no skill to shoot a funky doesn’t make it so. There is a difference between opinion and fact. And when it comes to mcb games, they could just as easily be considered as a welcome change of pace every now and then. There aren’t that many people that will ONLY play mcb because they are so appalled by the presence of funkies and hogs.

    Back on topic then. I don’t see anyone trying to enforce their opinion or demanding anything be implemented. We are having a debate. Personally I preferr a heated debate over yay saying and praising eachother.

    My main point of view is still the same. I want round wins to be worth more pts than kills, but I would like it if it was possible to overcome a round win with kills.

    Regarding (un)lucky spawning I have some issues with the random generator. That is a programmatical matter though whereas score is a server setting so I’ll leave that for another day and another topic.

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