This topic contains 49 replies, has 0 voices, and was last updated by  Laptops Daddy 7 years, 6 months ago.

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  • #53781

    Hyde911
    Participant

    @Kangabunny wrote:

    special interests?

    Lot of people sell gun for living, they try to make public believe war is the only solution.
    I’m not pacifist but I think war in Iraq and Afghanistan are exclusively commercial ventures. People like you who believe in their country die in Iraqi desert because somebody wants earn some money.

    #53782

    Deathbal
    Participant

    @hyde911 wrote:

    Who Kanga?? Afganian people, Iraqi people, Saddam Hussein??
    You’re chasing ghost. If You want to get rid of terrorism you have to remove cause of it: poverty and frustration. Sending troops there makes no sense. How many American soldiers have to die before you understand it?? What have you achieved since 9/11??
    War is somebody’s business Kanga.

    How do you propose we do that? Stop poverty and frustration. Then when you have a leader of a state (Saddam) sending 25k to families of suicide bombers, how do we stop him? Just tell him to stop?

    You can’t have an attack like 9/11 occur and just wave it away to poverty and frustration. Some message has to be sent. In this case two countries have been upended.

    If you think what Bush did was bad, imagine what would have happened if he said…..their just frustrated, now lets clean up the mess and focus on their poverty. Sorry, but we are not that far evolved yet.

    #53783

    Laptops Daddy
    Participant

    @kangabunny wrote:

    The Truman Doctrine made it a law during the cold war.

    …whereas we follow rules of the Geneva convention.

    Controversial stuff here.

    Truman was a war criminal. He’d probably have been executed if the United States applied the standards they expect from others to their own government.

    Bush (and Blair) were and are also war criminals and the same applies. The invasion of Iraq was illegal, the torture at Guantanamo Bay was illegal.

    Hundreds of thousands of people were killed in an illegal war centring around control of oil reserves. I don’t like the idea of capital punishment, but if Hussain should have been executed, so should Bush. People in these countries have every right to be angry. There’s no excuse to kill people.

    http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn10276-enormous-death-toll-of-iraq-invasion-revealed.html

    @chopper wrote:

    We are the country that has always “damned” if we do something and “damned” if we don’t.

    A list of the countries that we have helped is pretty long….

    I think it’s a case of making a bed and having to lie in it. Iraq is a good example. The UK, Russia and the US have a long history of tampering in middle eastern affairs.

    #53784

    ArmorWraith
    Participant

    Illegal>? Where!? Voted on and enacted by congress… so are you suggesting we also kill congress..

    Though not everything they enact is legal nowadays..

    If i remeber correctly the UK also has a history of invading other lands, making a bed, and having to lie in it…

    Like i said before, tat link claims the number of deaths would decrease if the terrorist will follow the Geneva conventon standards(duh if you dont target civilillians)… its not going to happen, they dont play by rules(kinda the point of being a terrorist, to break rules and inspire fear..).

    Kanga

    #53785

    Laptops Daddy
    Participant

    Congress? United States laws dont apply beyond the country’s borders.

    From what I gather, it’s quite widely accepted that the invasion of Iraq was illegal under international law, even by the United State’s and UK’s allies.

    This link seems quite well cited: http://www.globalpolicy.org/iraq/political-issues-in-iraq/international-law-aspects-of-the-iraq-war-and-occupation.html

    As I say, Im not down with capital punishment at all, personally, but if the same standards apply to the US that applied when Hussein and others were handed over for execution
    http://www.amnesty.org.uk/actions_details.asp?ActionID=579
    then yes… If this was an illegal war of aggression resulting in half a million+ people dying unnecessarily (or any number) and the destruction of a country, Bush and any members of congress and military leaders directly involved, should be tried and perhaps executed.

    That’d be a horrible thing to see and I def wouldnt support it personally, but you probably get the gist of how serious a crime I think the invasion was.

    Luckily for Bush (and for most of the rest of the world, I think), United States standards dont apply internationally, and luckily for the US and UK, Iraq wasnt quite the imminent threat we pretended.

    UK also has a history of invading other lands

    Definitely.

    #53786

    Deathbal
    Participant

    Remember the gulf war when we spanked Iraq? Conditions were placed on Iraq in order to stop the spanking and end the war. We have always retained the right to resume the spanking if these conditions were not met. And clearly they were not. Nor was Iraq a soveriegn nation. So unless you are changing the rules I don’t see how it was illegal.

    #53787

    Deathbal
    Participant

    @laptops Daddy wrote:

    Luckily for Bush (and for most of the rest of the world, I think), United States standards dont apply internationally

    Of course not. That is what a hefty arsenal of nuclear weapons can do for a country.

    #53788

    Laptops Daddy
    Participant

    @deathbal wrote:

    Of course not. That is what a hefty arsenal of nuclear weapons can do…

    What, warp a backwards country that struggles with its identity into a proud and respected nation given special treatment on the world stage wherever its standards fall short of international law or approval?

    Of course. Iran knows it, so does North Korea. India, Pakistan.

    (I’m trying to think of a few other backwards countries I can insult so I don’t sound prejudiced. France, Italy. Finland could probably use a good spanking. Wales.)

    Do you think American citizens would have been grateful to see Hussein’s threat removed if say China or Russia had decided unilaterally to invade and occupy Iraq?

    We all paid a heavy price for the war – the Iraqis more than anyone, and I don’t think it’s much of a stretch to imagine the war contributed to the global financial crisis. The price paid doesn’t make the sketchy justification any more valid.

    #53789

    Deathbal
    Participant

    Actually Lappy, you missed my point in my last post.

    Anyway, what I was trying to say is that we did not simply go into Iraq for no reason. Lets not forget that Iraq was not a soveriegn nation. They have not been since the end of the gulf war.

    The end of hostilities was conditional. Those hostilities could resume at any point if Saddam violated the conditions.

    That is how the gulf war ended. Now I don’t know what changed between then and 2003 to now call it illegal. Because clearly Iraq violated just about every resolution and condition placed on them as a result of the gulf war.

    #53790

    Laptops Daddy
    Participant

    @deathbal wrote:

    Because clearly Iraq violated just about every resolution and condition placed on them as a result of the gulf war.

    replace violated with complied with and youll be closer to the story told in the only sources ive ever seen.

    please link me up if you have access to something i dont. id love to read it.

    wasnt the main idea that iraq may not have fully complied with disarming itself of WMD’s? and didnt it turn out that they had afterall? surely the news and internet sources you have in the US cant be any different. just google ‘why did america invade iraq’ or ‘reasons for the iraq war’.

    where do you get your information?

    #53791

    Deathbal
    Participant

    @laptops Daddy wrote:

    @deathbal wrote:

    Because clearly Iraq violated just about every resolution and condition placed on them as a result of the gulf war.

    replace violated with complied with and youll be closer to the story told in the only sources ive ever seen.

    please link me up if you have access to something i dont. id love to read it.

    wasnt the main idea that iraq may not have fully complied with disarming itself of WMD’s? and didnt it turn out that they had afterall? surely the news and internet sources you have in the US cant be any different. just google ‘why did america invade iraq’ or ‘reasons for the iraq war’.

    where do you get your information?

    I wasn’t talking about WMD. I was talking about resolutions and conditions placed on Iraq after the gulf war ended. No fly zones and stuff like that. Conditions that if broken would allow hostilities to resume. Most of the violations to these conditions were ignored for many years. But then again, who listens to UN resolutions anyway?

    #53792

    Viking62
    Participant

    Not meant to be offtopic- I notice quite a lot of debate on the forum about what is really going on in todays world events. Well, I have been a fan of FTA (Free To Air) satellite television for going on 5 years now. If you truly want to see what is going on in the real world news…. (Not U.S. Government censored/or, non reported in the U.S.)….These satellite feeds can really be an eye opener for some. Here is a list of some of the channels you can view yourself with a FTA satellite dish & FTA receiver (Surprisingly not that expensive/”Initial Setup & Equipment”, & no subscription cost & is totally legal)English Link((Note:KU band is what you will get with a 36″ & under dish size…..C Band is available with a larger dish size))= http://www.lyngsat.com/freetv/United-States.html … . There are numerous websites on the internet to buy these systems (My preference is a “Motorized system”,36″ dish that can view numerous KU Band satellites/channels).
    The website I have linked here has all the equipment & a great group of people (forum) to help with any/all setup,use,technical questions you may have. ~I set one of these systems up for my father in law before he passed away….really changed his outlook on other nations and the world as a whole…..His words:I did’nt realize how much news is hidden from us here in the U.S./We are really left in the dark. -Pretty much most all of the religions of the world also have channels to watch also=interesting. I watch Russian,Iranian,Afganistan,Iraqi news….just to name a few (Quite a lot of them air in English). There are also satellite radio stations to be had also.

    *Believe 1/2 of what you hear…80 percent of what you see, & always keep an open mind*=VikeDeductions

    system FTA Link–> http://www.sadoun.com/Sat/Order/Satellite-systems/Motorized-Systems.htm
    If anyone is interseted-This is the best $$ I ever spent….minus my pc builds.
    If interest builds on the FTA subject,we could add a thread about it.
    *I only dabble in the Legal aspects of FTA satellite television*

    #53793

    Chopper
    Participant

    wow….lotsa channels….are all of them “free”…or are some you have to pay for somehow…

    I might want to watch MTV-Pakistan… 🙂

    #53794

    Viking62
    Participant

    All listed in the FTA (Free To Air) index are “Free” to watch/record…The Nasa channel on Dish Network satellite is also “in the clear”….non pay/clear to watch for free. . .2 RTN (retro TV channels are also the same deal on the Nimq satellite) (Canadian type of Dish Network)….and they are free to watch also-that can change over time though. If you have a clear view of the southern skies at approx. a 30 degree angle…left to right horizon arching…you are a go for a motorized fta system-You would’nt regret it-I have’nt. Here, I will include some gadgets to familiarize yourself with some of this stuff.

    How to find out where you are-For Satellite dish pre install-
    Link ➡ http://www.satsig.net/maps/lat-long-finder.htm

    More sat./channel info per satellite-remember…FTA is “Free”…simple.
    I see on the web,some say free tv is a myth….LOL! Yes it is if Dish network is paying to get that add/info in peoples heads….. I’ve been watching tv that does’nt exist for over 5 years now 😉 (& yep,It works on my newest lcd HDTV/Late 2009 model.) keep in mind even satellite is going to HDTV….might want to be sure the FTA satellite box you buy is HDTV ready….NTSC format here in the U.S./PAL format for some other countries. *I do not know the legalities for other countries*….but, here in the U.S. FTA tv has been around since the 1990’s or earlier. Did ya ever wonder what those huge sat dishes were in some peoples yards/Lawns? Well, now you know-1 of the best kept secrets in the U.S. I think.

    Do not get swindled into paying for this type of satellite television-It is what it is…Free To Air…Free to watch….there are some pay channels(They have $$ sign next to them/& “No, you cant accidentally subscribe to them” & get charged $$) and you will not be able to watch them(I just delete those from my program list).

    U.S. Whats on FTA… ➡ http://www.whatsonfta.net/

    A online program/service list you can customize yourself=Free also….
    http://www.titantv.com/default.aspx/

    LEGALFREETOAIR.COM (forum)-
    http://legalfreetoair.com/index.php

    The place to check the active sats/lists of channels:
    http://www.lyngsat.com/

    Edited/added…. F.A.Q. about FTA Sat TV ➡ http://www.ftalist.com/ftafaq.php (B.t.w….I used a small television next to the dish & sat box & my wife to get aimed at my most southern satellite(centered on that for motorized dish install)Yep, did it meself 😉

    Oh yeah-For the U.S. crowd…. the FTA satellite horizon runs from 61°W-160°W on a compass-I can only view 72W to about 127W….With my 9 Local antenna(HDTV)channels, I have 199 (not a typo) channels of Television to watch 😀 ….cough….FREE/Legal.

    Included a recent screenshot of my FTA channels with the TV on-See below-[attachment=0:1l148fuu]FTA-Channels.jpg[/attachment:1l148fuu]

    #53795

    comedown
    Participant

    @deathbal wrote:

    @hyde911 wrote:

    Who Kanga?? Afganian people, Iraqi people, Saddam Hussein??
    You’re chasing ghost. If You want to get rid of terrorism you have to remove cause of it: poverty and frustration. Sending troops there makes no sense. How many American soldiers have to die before you understand it?? What have you achieved since 9/11??
    War is somebody’s business Kanga.

    How do you propose we do that? Stop poverty and frustration. Then when you have a leader of a state (Saddam) sending 25k to families of suicide bombers, how do we stop him? Just tell him to stop?

    You can’t have an attack like 9/11 occur and just wave it away to poverty and frustration. Some message has to be sent. In this case two countries have been upended.

    If you think what Bush did was bad, imagine what would have happened if he said…..their just frustrated, now lets clean up the mess and focus on their poverty. Sorry, but we are not that far evolved yet.

    Since when were the suicide bombers from Iraq? #-o

    Talk about lapping up any ridiculous excuse that someone throws out in the media…

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