February 11, 2010 at 4:49 pm #59549
Parasti, if this forum would be open it immediately will be flooded with worthless posts. Like I said there is the place everybody can show their ideas. I’m sure every valuable concept is taken under consideration. I’m also sure that You have skills and You are eager to contribute this game You will be invited to Developers Team.
Paradox. Look it up in a dictionary, Hyde.
Unfortunately page with word ‘paradox’ in my dictionary is missing.February 11, 2010 at 5:03 pm #59550
I see no Point to your Argument parasti, there are many intelligent individuals who have made good suggestions without having acess to the developers forum.
Take a look at some of Laptops posts, he is indeed a very intelligent individual that plays an active role in the development process, but is not a developer himself and does not have access to the Developer forum.
If we give you a problem, itll be more advantageous (stimulates and generates new ideas) to pose solutions, then to give you a solution and ask for the problem.
(it works kinda backasswards)
Further more, you mentioned something about people being confused about who is a developer and who is not in other games. This could be a problem in that false information could be spread, and hacks easily made.
Imagine this Scenario:
Person A reads Dev A forum post on how to stop a hack, Person A develops a countermeasure to Dev A’s safegaurds, effectively allowing him or her to cheat and to spread the information in the community.
This could be potentially catastrophic in that it would upset the stability in the community and in the game.
There needs to be a hierarchy to the forums indeed to avoid confusion and disorder, which is why the admins and devs are seperate from forum goers.
Forumgoers have the feature and bug thread, admins and devs have their own threads.
Either way opening of the Dev thread is indeed up to Gavin and as such is not really worth arguing at this point in time.
KangaFebruary 11, 2010 at 5:21 pm #59551
Open source. Look it up in a dictionary, Kanga.
Sorry, could not resist. 😛 But I do think you absolutely do not understand any of the concepts that I’m clinging to, so I agree this discussion between us is going nowhere.February 11, 2010 at 6:19 pm #59552
-of or relating to or being computer software for which the source code is freely available
I don’t see how this relates as it mentions nothing of the actual development process of the source code, just the finished project. The finished project can then be redistributed freely with due credit, and may be modified as the user sees fit.
I believe the term your looking for is “Communal Development”. 😀
(yes i just made that word, i am that cool, i think i shall copyright that)
(i really dont care either way if the dev forums are opened or not, but I tend to believe that Gavin made them seperate for a reason. I am putting forth the cons you are putting forth the pros, debate is necessary for worthwhile change.)
KangaFebruary 11, 2010 at 7:04 pm #59553
Just for clarification – it has been a few years for me – what are the specific changes that people wish to have done to the game? Preferably without telling me why.February 11, 2010 at 8:05 pm #59554
Changes? None really, Boy has halted most of the changes he made with the only continuing change being a Bot being added to the server.
Variety and Player Attraction:
Some people would like to see more variety of weapons use, instead of Mcb.
This also plays into the new player theory in that a wider weapons use will help keep new
players from leaving. Some people believe Mcb is unfriendly to newer players.
The Opposition to new changes is that the old settings were fine and the weapon choice of the players should be what decides game play.
Another issue is whether scorched needs more players or not.
Resign issues were mentioned, not sure how thats going?
( I suggested a resign timer for v43 to try to settle this.)
I personally want both sides to get what they want by establishing 3 levels of servers; you can find my suggestions in my post in the general and game play forum.
Other changes proposed were of website and forum designs.
Anything else im missing? (besides players opinions of one another)
Welcome Back AI
KangaFebruary 12, 2010 at 4:48 am #59555
Kanga: Since the source is freely available, anyone can look at what changes have been done -to the source-. This makes your counter-argument regarding people being able to work around cheat-fixes void.
parasti: I agree that the dev forum should be readable, or at least shown in the main list. Allowing write access to it may not be a good idea, though, for two reasons: 1. the opposition it would get from elitists, and 2. some people (and possibly some forum bots) would post in it without having any clue what they’re saying or what is being said.
Thrax: by generically calling all non-dev posts and ideas an “interruption” you have made yourself sound not only narcissistic but also quite elitist. Giving yourself such an appearance can only be detrimental to the game and community as a whole, considering that you yourself are a co-developer. I’m quite disappointed that you would make such a derogatory remark, insulting everyone outside your little club.
Hyde: You seem to be holding personal grudges, and bringing things like that into any debate is never beneficial. Another thing to note: just making a forum visible does not mean that everyone has write access.
Thrax again: The above applies to you as well.
Best overall solution (in my mind) is to list the developer forum in the main index, but only allow read and write access (separately) on an individual basis. This way, those of us who are not of the (very) few developers can see how much activity it has.
I do -not- yet see total stagnation in the development process, simply going by the number of version changes. What I do see is a stagnation cycle starting.
I have seen this pattern of “detrimental changes -> players leave -> elitism starts -> admin power-grabs -> more players leaving -> development stagnates -> complaints, suggestions, and constructive criticism made and ignored -> more admin power-grabs -> development virtually stops -> even more players leaving -> game dies” several times in other games. It can happen quite quickly, sometimes in less than a year. It saddens me to see that Scorched also seems to be falling into this pattern. Whenever this pattern starts, it leads to the “more privileged” members of the community making power grabs, becoming (more) narcissistic, driving off players, and in the case of admins, banning other members who won’t kiss their posterior in addition to promoting the ones who do.
Another thing I have noticed that is common in the above cycle is hypocrisy. Hypocrisy among “regular” members of any community often causes said members to be shunned by most. Hypocrisy among “privileged” members of any community often leads to many problems, and is never beneficial.February 15, 2010 at 6:15 pm #59556
Firstly before I reply I want to thank xtx for taking the time to form up his post.
And I’m both sorry that you feel you need a cry for help, and happy that you still want to.
Your post seems to mainly focus around some main areas.
1) Freemarket economy. Actually thinking back to the original scorched earth
it didn’t work so much then either, prices just kept rising. I think part of the issue is there are just some things that people always need to buy so its not really a free market.
It’s always difficult when making changes to differentiate between people being frightened of change and stepping out of their comfort zone and those that are making a genuine complaint. The free market was always meant to make people chose different tactics each time the market adjusted, so we were expecting a certain amount of complaint until they found new tactics.
But perhaps as you say it just causes pain and resentment.
Thinking back to a similar mechanism in a game I used to play a lot I remember not liking it at all, so if people want it disabled that’s fine.
2) Small islands. If this is a problem then we can re-enable this.
Actually as you say I was under the impression people didn’t like these maps so I’ve strayed away from making any more maps like this.
3) Cheating. Pretty much every player of online games thinks there are cheats out there. Usually because there are. If people focus on this fact then it spoils the game for everyone, anytime someone is killed or does a good move/shot people call them a cheat, upsetting the good and bad players alike.
This is why we tried to react so quickly to anything that could be called cheating.
Perhaps there was an over reaction but I never see more posts or debate than when people think there is a cheat around.
4) Funky bombs. These were my favourite weapons in scorched earth although even then they were overpowered. I’m not sure if making them harder to use has stopped me using them though.
5) Admins. Server/forum admins are a god send to me. I cannot overstate how much I appreciate the work they do. Admins allow me to leave the running of the site for a while and concentrate on other things such as coding,
and other general maintenance tasks that take days at a time. How those admins are chosen I guess is a little ad hoc, those that have been around, seem sensible, and have time are generally chosen. Is this the best I don’t know.
However I’d like to think any suggestions made be long standing players are listened to.
6) General decline of players. I agree your stats show a general decline in players. Does that support your reasons for the decline, perhaps, perhaps not, I can’t say. All games especially ones that have been out for a while go through a decline. Usually this is because the game becomes old and stagnant or people become bored of it, not because the game changes, completely the opposite in fact. If the game changes and keeps fresh it keeps people.
Now that doesn’t address the fact that players on the server were getting frustrated and leaving. We/I need to work at having better communication and fix these things when these things happen.
7) Keeping things open. I’m the first to admit I’m not the best at communicating. If I have the choice between telling people what I’m doing and coding, I’ll usually code. It’s not that I want it to be private or want to stop people knowing whats going on, it’s just that it’s not my thing telling everyone what I’m doing. I’m not on facebook, beebo etc generaly I avoid self promotion.
I don’t have an issue with making the developer forum viewable but read only. It’s not secret in fact there is not that much going on in there tbh. I think a bug tracker would help people see visibility of things being fixed/updated at least, and help me keep track of who I’ve notified and who I haven’t. The rest of the communication I’ll just need to work at I guess.
Look forward to your response.
GavinFebruary 16, 2010 at 12:04 am #59557
I for one, am nOT a power grabbing admin…In fact I pride myself how little i have to step in that role in a game. Not sure who you mean there.
But I know this, people come to play and have fun…..thats what its all about. Don’t mistake this forum for “The Game”.
I think thats been happening.
Play there …not here….you just might rediscover how much fun it is.February 16, 2010 at 4:11 am #59558
Gavin: A bug tracker may be a good idea – at least everyone will be able to “see” whatever progress is being made.
Chopper: If you’re referring to me, I was simply comparing the cycle I’m seeing here to what I’ve seen elsewhere. However, you make a point in that the “game” and the “forums” are not one and the same – this was not the case elsewhere. Typically, when I see the stagnation cycle to which I referred occur, accounts are shared between the game aspect and the forum aspect. As such, the only aspect that I have seen recently is the forum, so I’m in no position to make predictions on where either is heading. On the other hand, I’ve seen things like this happen here before, and we as a community bounced back, so I’m hoping we can do so again.
Now, for relieving some tension.
*Slaps all present, including myself*
*Proceeds to arm a forty-megaton N2 warhead*
P.S. I gave some advice to a friend the other day, and I think it applies here as well (albeit in a different context): “If you aren’t clear with people, they’ll never know what you’re thinking.” As was stated before, there definitely seems to be a lack of communication – from all parties. “Cool down and say what you think (but avoid being intentionally derogatory)!”
Humans aren’t telepathic by nature, you know.
“Drop what’s in the past, it can’t be undone. Don’t forget it, just drop it as a marker, so you may avoid the same mistakes in the future.” -MeFebruary 16, 2010 at 11:30 am #59559
good points, kinda like those that don’t learn from history are doomed to repeat it… #-o
and lately it seems that those playing the game the least are talking about it the most here. I’m just trying to get people off these damn forums and back in the game.
Its why we’re all here to begin with isn’t it. get yer butts back on Main or whatever your pleasure. Let your missles do your talking.
Hammer Up! 😆February 18, 2010 at 10:22 am #59560
pastor of muppetsParticipant
I have changed my work schedule 5 times in the last week Chop hunting your arse down! What time are you playing these days I want to Nuke your ol’ butt.February 19, 2010 at 12:10 am #59561
Bring it on weiner…. 😆 …just keep Ellie off my azz. Shes deadly….February 19, 2010 at 2:52 pm #59562
pastor of muppetsParticipant
Name the time and place old fart and we will destroy you…or I will and she will probably destroy me.February 20, 2010 at 11:13 am #59563
Hmm, my post wasn’t meant as the last word or to quash any other comments. It would be interesting to know if you agree or disagree.
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