This topic contains 38 replies, has 0 voices, and was last updated by  Rommel 8 years, 7 months ago.

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  • #55643

    xtc
    Participant

    Wish we had that kind of problems in my country…
    At about the same time with mentioned incident, the following happened in my home region.

    Read carefully, there is no mistake.

    Police officer beaten to death a victim, also beaten his brother, because the victim whom the officer came to take to the police station, refused to proceed there.
    The officer got an “incredible” term of 8 years high security…

    #55644

    Rommel
    Participant

    Dear All:

    Like some of you, I still have not researched the specifics of this case. Instead, I put myself in the worst case situation and evaluated my reactions. This might be a good thing for all to consider. Not just from Joe’s perspective but from all sides involved. Since this disussion seems to be more about Joe’s actions, than about those grieving for the criminals, I’ll follow the trend.

    Imagine your wife, son, daughter, father, mother, loved one is on the phone with you. You live about 5 minutes away but can make it in about 2 minutes if you run the traffic lights. You not only own weapons, you are very proficient with them. The person on the phone screams that 3 men wearing ski masks are breaking in the door and then the phone goes dead.

    If you are undecided, about what you should do, perhaps you should listen to the 911 call from Joe Horn again.

    You grab your best weapon and go there immediately. You call the police on the way. You are excited, you try to explain. The dispatcher wants to know who you are, what time you received this call, exactly how you know the person that called and why they didn’t call 911 themselves if they had been having prowlers. You arrive. Someone in a van across the street blows their horn and takes off as you pull into the driveway. You throw the phone in the floor and grab your favorite weapon. The dispatcher is asking if the home owners name is on the mailbox. You laugh at hearing this, the tension fades, you are calm now, you open the door.

    As you exit the vehicle, you hear screaming inside the house. The front door swings opens and you are faced by 3 masked men.

    You swing your boom stick in their direction and scream out, “DON’T MOVE YOU MOTHER FUCKERS!” They start to run. The choices now appear to be limited to either opening fire or begging them to stop.

    If you would fire, we aren’t so different you and I. Not in that respect at least.

    Hoping to hog you soon,

    Rommel

    #55645

    Raden
    Participant

    Rommel, Hi,

    Heh, you sure have a way of making things be seen in a different way.

    In Malaysia, we have strict gun laws, you need a licence to own one, to get a licence is not easy, nowadays its not even possible to get a licence for a hand gun…only shotguns or rifle, and the only valid reason is if you have a farm to protect (from wild animals). And the police do a background check on you to see whether you’re ok to be given a licence. I think they also conduct annual shooting sessions at the shooting range for license renewal. But one loophole is, the licence can be transfered from father to son/daughter, provided they also pass the background check. Without a licence, even possesion of a single bullet is punishable by a lengthy jail term ❗

    So, I have no gun, but my dad has (hehe)..actually he’s got 1 rifle, 2 shotguns, and a Beretta pistol (he got this prior to the NO HAND GUN ruling). So if any of those weapons were to be in my possesion, and I was in the situation you just mentioned, I’d shoot those guys. At times like that, no time to think, its gonna be all pure reaction + anger (I suppose)…. consequences… wth….will deal with it later. Also, since you mentioned, that I would be a proficient handler of the weapons, then I’d probably aim to stop them but not kill. But if i were a bad shot, I’d just let go as many shots as I can till I see them drop.

    But Mr Horn wasn’t in this imaginary situation…

    #55646

    Laptops Daddy
    Participant

    @rommel wrote:

    …As you exit the vehicle, you hear screaming inside the house. The front door swings opens and you are faced by 3 masked men.

    You swing your boom stick in their direction and scream out, “DON’T MOVE YOU MOTHER f**k!” They start to run. The choices now appear to be limited to either opening fire or begging them to stop.

    If you would fire, we aren’t so different you and I. Not in that respect at least.

    Why did i read that as ‘3 naked men’?

    Homosexual erotica aside, if you listen to the 911 call, the guy had no idea if the perpetrators were a physical threat to anybody. Far as he knew, the house was empty. (thats why he was keeping an eye on it). And he points out that he doesnt even know his neighbours too well. From what I gleam, the people he killed could just as well have been relatives of the neighbours, come to check on things.

    Im sure we can all imagine a hypothetical situation that might justify an extreme response. If you ask me, its this subjective measure of potential threat that makes it so important not to provide lethal weapons to untrained civilians, and even among trained professionals, to assess their psychological suitability for peace keeping before putting them in that position.

    From what I know, in any other developed country in the world (outside of America), this man would be held up as a murderer* and certainly no hero. Why is America so different?

    *Please step up and put me right if you happen to be from some other country that would permit this kind of injustice. Id be very interested.

    #55636

    Rommel
    Participant

    I’m not sure what you mean by different.

      A. We have the right to own weapons.
      and
      B. We have the right to use them.
      but
      C. We do not have the right to murder anyone in cold blood.

    If those are all of your concerns :

    @laptops Daddy wrote:

    From what I know, in any other developed country in the world (outside of America), this man would be held up as a murderer* and certainly no hero. Why is America so different?

    The answers you seek to parts A and B may be found by researching the United States Constitution. For material to explain the rational, try the history of the American Revolution.

    Part C is self explanitory and is no different than most any other country.

    This doesn’t alter the fact that when you are caught committing a crime, you don’t try to run unless you’re willing to risk your life to get away. People that are willing to risk their lives in the commision of a crime, could hardly be expected to be overly concerned about the lives of their victims. This makes them much more of a threat than those that give up peacefully.

    #55637

    Rommel
    Participant

    Hi Raden :

    It made me smile to see that you would fire. Hopefully everyone else would have as well. As for showing something from a different angle, I’ve found that it is a good idea to look at all sides of an apple before taking a bite. Even then, you will bite into a worm now and then.

    @raden wrote:

    Rommel, Hi,

    Heh, you sure have a way of making things be seen in a different way.

    So, I have no gun, but my dad has (hehe)..actually he’s got 1 rifle, 2 shotguns, and a Beretta pistol (he got this prior to the NO HAND GUN ruling). So if any of those weapons were to be in my possesion, and I was in the situation you just mentioned, I’d shoot those guys. At times like that, no time to think, its gonna be all pure reaction + anger (I suppose)…. consequences… wth….will deal with it later. Also, since you mentioned, that I would be a proficient handler of the weapons, then I’d probably aim to stop them but not kill. But if i were a bad shot, I’d just let go as many shots as I can till I see them drop.

    But Mr Horn wasn’t in this imaginary situation…

    Although I respect your desire not to kill anyone if possible, hitting a moving target is difficult. Having a limited number of opportunities to fire, you must make each shot count. As you might imagine, arms and legs do not present much of a profile. In the case of someone running, either at or away from you, arms and legs would be nearly impossible to target with any degree of certainty.

    These facts along with the fact that there are innocents in the area, would require shooting for the center of the largest area presented in order to decrease the likelyhood of missing.

    You are correct that my made up scene was not exactly the same as Mr. Horn. However, other than the fact that I tried to stir emotion, the facts are pretty close in both cases :

    Joe Horn – Knows a crime is being committed.
    You knew a crime was being committed.

    Joe Horn did not know if anyone was home that may have been killed.
    You knew someone was home and by the screaming, still alive.

    Joe Horn contacted the police.
    You did too.

    Joe Horn couldn’t wait on the police.
    You couldn’t wait either.

    Joe Horn was confronted by two men.
    You were confronted by three.

    Joe Horn did not if they were armed.
    You did not know if they were armed.

    Joe Horn fired.
    So did you.

    Good job!

    Peace Out,

    Rommel

    #55647

    Laptops Daddy
    Participant

    @rommel wrote:

    C. We do not have the right to murder anyone in cold blood.

    apparently you do in some parts – hence this controversial thread.

    @rommel wrote:

    The answers you seek to parts A and B may be found by researching the United States Constitution. For material to explain the rational, try the history of the American Revolution.

    im familiar with your second amendment*

    @rommel wrote:

    This doesn’t alter the fact that when you are caught committing a crime, you don’t try to run unless you’re willing to risk your life to get away.

    i think we need to consider the severity of the crime…

    should a policeman have the right to shoot a teenager dead if she steals an apple from a market stall, gets scared and decides to run? i dont think he should.

    should the police have the right to shoot to kill a robber who has shot and killed his victim in plain sight, is still armed and is trying to flee. yes – i think perhaps they should, as an absolute last resort.

    maybe something else to consider is how damaging the act of killing someone is to most sane people. surely its a heavy price to pay in any circumstances.

    *”A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.”

    “A topic central to the gun control debate, is the conflict between gun control laws and the right to lawfully rebel against unjust governments.”

    i really fail to see how these concerns give justification for civilians owning guns in the 21st century. how could any amount of civilian weaponry possibly stand against the united states military?

    i mean, thats the concept, right? that armed civilians might keep the military in check?

    i can imagine the terror in the eyes of a tank driver being confronted by an office clerk wielding a 12 bore shotgun, cant you? better send for the f-22’s.

    #55648

    Rommel
    Participant

    Apparently you don’t understand the difference in cold blooded murder and justifiable homicide.
    @laptops Daddy wrote:

    @rommel wrote:

    C. We do not have the right to murder anyone in cold blood.

    apparently you do in some parts – hence this controversial thread.

    #55649

    BigBear
    Participant

    @rommel wrote:

    Apparently you don’t understand the difference in cold blooded murder and justifiable homicide.

    Apparently you do not grasp the difference between disagreeing and not understanding. 😉 😛

    #55650

    Rommel
    Participant

    In the U.S., murder and justifiable homicide are seperate items under the law.

    The deaths of the two escaping felons may have been considered justifiable.

    Thus far, no one has been able to show that Joe violated any of our laws.

    If the felons had been arrested we would not have chopped off a hand.

    Refusal to surrender however, is to risk forfeiture of life and/or limb.

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