This topic contains 108 replies, has 0 voices, and was last updated by  Deathbal 4 years, 11 months ago.

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  • #64068

    Laptops Daddy
    Participant

    @peanutsrevenge wrote:

    Oh, I didn’t realise you were talking low-mid range card versus 2 budget

    i miss our little arguments, and dont play games with me!

    £60 is decent midrange, £120 is high-end. £200 is very high-end, costing 70% more for maybe 10% faster if youre lucky. (far more than id ever pay). id think about stretching to £160 for something reaaally nice. £400 for a single card is ridiculous, flagship, released last week, not yet ready for the main market. i could build a complete high-end PC thatd leave anything off the shelf in the dust, for that – and i know you could.

    you know as well as i do, in any generation there’s a clear set: entry level/budget, mid-level and high-end. there are clear lines between them and the price points are £30-40, £50-80, £90-120ish. if youre paying more than £80 for mid, youre getting ripped off.

    #64069

    PeanutsRevenge
    Participant

    @laptops Daddy wrote:

    @peanutsrevenge wrote:

    Oh, I didn’t realise you were talking low-mid range card versus 2 budget

    i miss our little arguments, and dont play games with me!

    £60 is decent midrange, £120 is high-end. £200 is very high-end, costing 70% more for maybe 10% faster if youre lucky. (far more than id ever pay). id think about stretching to £160 for something reaaally nice. £400 for a single card is ridiculous, flagship, released last week, not yet ready for the main market. i could build a complete high-end PC thatd leave anything off the shelf in the dust, for that – and i know you could.

    you know as well as i do, in any generation there’s a clear set: entry level/budget, mid-level and high-end. there are clear lines between them and the price points are £30-40, £50-80, £90-120ish. if youre paying more than £80 for mid, youre getting ripped off.

    Seriously, laptop, I was not kidding around, I don’t know how long it’s been since you played around with the newer hardware (I still haven’t had a proper play with either new ‘core ix’, but I’m way ahead of you.

    What you seem to have completely missed is that are a lot of niche markets, it’s less about the old 3 level standard.
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    £60 – £100


    >
    Computer hardware has long supassed what the average user needs on most counts, so the absolute most basic is fine so long as the onboard gfx are decent enough to accelerate flash and blue-ray, if not, then a budget gfx card is put in that will handle it @ £50, this will also give pretty decent acceleration of video, including the top audio codecs (which is a new feature, requires a full encoded path from source to monitor/speaker) so they’re also used fairly often in HTPCs because of the video output aswell as their low noise/power levels, however HTPCs can also benefit from boards upto £100 if you’re REALLY picky about your image quality.

    Then there are the scorch style gamers, and idiots like my uncle who thinks he needs an 8800GT for his facebook games, because someone told him games needs graphics cards but enough about those people.

    For scorched a pretty basic card is all that’s required, but they occasionally play other games, but don’t mind turning down the quality, because they’re used to games that don’t sell on their ‘prettiness’ (not that Scorched ‘sells’ but… ah shaddup).

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    £100 – £150


    >

    Above that slightly are those that want good graphics on their 22″ monitor, but are out of work or insufficient pocket money, so get the nicest price / performance card that still requires several settings turning down, but at least they’re getting 30-40fps

    Also here are the OEMs that like to brand their machines “gaming” with JUST vague enough descriptions of “optimised for the latest high quality games”, selling with a 22″ screen and stupidly fast CPU, when really it’ll run them well, but it won’t play the way these screenshots make it look.

    They sell to those that don’t really know much, but want something half decent for £500, no need to pay more than that, only to find that the wrong thing’s the performance component for their needs (nice GPU crap CPU for playing spring, nice CPU crap GPU WoW), who could spend more, but don’t want to.

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    £150 – £200


    >

    Now you’re getting into the ‘gamer’ catagory whether many of the latest games can be played going on for top detail @ 720p and high quality @ 1080p @30-40fps.

    This is also a good spot to buy a card with the intention of getting a second one a year later when they only cost about £70-£120, providing you already have the right board / PSU and CPU to power them) and they’re still around a year later, it’s likely with these boards tho.

    <!


    £200-£250


    >

    This is the area for the SLIGHTLY weathier guy than £150-£200, it’s the really sweet spot for gaming.
    It allows the gamer to either have the highest quality settings (aside from AA, which goes for all these) @ 1080p and 30-40fps, OR high level detail @ 1080p and 60-100fps. Which is best is one of the most argued topics on the geek net.

    It’s a bit of risk expecting these boards to still be around a year later, but if one can be found, they’re BRILLIANT additions to an aging rig.

    <!


    £300 – £400


    >

    At this point you’re looking at those with either big wallets, or a nice computer room, or you have to walk through a pig sty to get to the computer room.

    Here you’re adding the option of 3D, the problem with 3D is that the frame rate is pretty much halved, as images have to be rendered for each eye (whichever way this is done), so what would have given a nice 30-40fps now gives an unplayable 15-20fps.

    But at this point, you’re probably packing twice the performance of the previous price point, so have the same decisions to made, high detail, or high frame rate.

    <!


    £400 +


    >

    Here you’re running either multiple monitors, 3D or both at some silly resolutions and getting a MINUMIM frame rate of 30, averaging 70-80.

    ________________________________________________________________________________

    I’m in the £400 catagory, although I didn’t buy these cards, they were given to me, as was one of my previous 9800GTs (when I got that, I swapped the 8800GT I had for a 9800 GT a friend had).
    Although, they are a few generations old now.

    The difference in performance and quality from £60-£400 is huge, best witnessed in high speed racing games and first person shooters.

    Racing games the most, when travelling @ 200+mph, I honestly tell you, frame drop into a braking zone would be a killer (if I had the neumatic chair I’d like, impact vest and VR headset) and using 3-4 monitors so that you can see the guy on the inside of you in your left screen is MASSIVELY advantageous and hugely enjoyable (just a shame my two side monitors are 1280×1024, one of which is a CRT).

    Laptop, please, stop stating things when you’re not up to date, people here respect what you say, for good reason, you’re giving them out of date info dude.

    #64070

    PeanutsRevenge
    Participant

    AND LOOK HOW MUCH YOU’VE MADE ME TYPE
    AND LOOK HOW IT’S JUST US TALKING does his best to ignore the frenchie
    AND WHAT HAPPENED TO HIS HEAD ‽ ‽ ‽ ‽ ‽ ‽

    #64071

    Laptops Daddy
    Participant

    …you seem to have completely missed is that are a lot of niche markets, it’s less about the old 3 level standard

    niche markets are irrelevant in the grander scheme, by definition

    Computer hardware has long supassed what the average user needs on most counts, so the absolute most basic is fine so long as the onboard gfx are decent enough to accelerate flash and blue-ray

    blu-ray. (no e : ), but yeah, h.264 acceleration is quite common now, from what ive seen.

    our needs have changed a bit. we probably expect to encode HD video, or play games in full 1080. we might expect to retouch 12 megapixel pics, where a few years ago it may have been 8. operating systems and modern software have more pretty bits, bloat and nonsense than they ever did. the list goes on.

    ^ the point about HD res isnt meant to reinforce the rest of what youve said. your post seems a bit contradictory, and it’s hard to argue both sides without running into the same trouble.

    I’m in the £400 catagory

    if you say so. you have a couple of high-end gts250, which you can buy new for about £60. very reasonable cards.

    ‘a bit contradictory’. i was being nice. your whole post is one big contradiction. youre effectively saying, ‘look, im on an ultra-high-end gaming system, made up of a couple of 60 quid graphics cards. and, i need it, because the requirements have changed and i need higher resolution graphics than i used to’.

    a modern gaming card, say an HD 5850 or an HD 6850 for people who are wise with their cash, is about £100-120 – just where it should be. niche markets do exist, i’ll grant you. today’s fantasy, bells and whistles ‘look what we can do’ model, £300-400 cards, will be trimmed and pushed into the mainstream. in a years time, they’ll be £100ish, and the cycle will continue. it’s been that way for about a decade, and it’s no different now. im not that out of touch. it’s just the way it works. the gaming and graphics markets are dependent and established around the price points i mentioned – the games are developed to suit. if the games didnt run well on reasonably priced mainstream hardware, they wouldnt sell.

    #64072

    PeanutsRevenge
    Participant

    Yep, good catch with the blu-ray, just making sure that you were reading everything :p

    You can’t buy these cards new anymore.

    If we’re to start including second hand, or risking ebay, or even, mates old cast offs, then yea, these are £60 cards, which proves my point on getting one when they’re new, getting the performance out of them and get another a year or so later (2 year in this case I think it is) to boost the performance for the new games.

    I don’t doubt you read contradiction in my post, I try to look at both sides and let others know about the other side of the coin, there are usually pros AND cons, I’m trying to be honest and let people know there are alternatives and there are disadvantages.

    My machine can only just run the latest games, the CPU is the main bottleneck, the graphics can’t quite stretch their legs properly, but with the next upgrade, the cards will be the bottleneck, I just hope that bottleneck is around 40fps average @ high settings on BF3.

    #64073

    Laptops Daddy
    Participant

    …proves my point on getting one when they’re new, getting the performance out of them and get another a year or so later

    for sli? i wouldnt for a new system, as i say. ive seen enough. i can see why you might want dual cards for more than two monitors, though.

    dont quote me, but i think it’s possible to run a full length card in a single lane slot without too much messing about. i may be making that up. could be a nice way to add a third monitor if you just want something to check your email on while you play games on the main. sli motherboards are expensive.

    anyway, im going to take your point more as:

    peanut probably wrote:
    ‘buy high-end architecture for about £120 – because it’s worth the extra and it’ll last you another year’

    ^ the voice of experience : )

    no one sensible spends more than £120-£150 on a graphics card, £300 cards willl be worth no more than £50-60 in a couple of years anyway.

    #64074

    PeanutsRevenge
    Participant

    Of course they won’t be worth much in a couple of years, they’ll be dumb cards.

    They won’t give the performance they did when they were new, because the games they were built to run have been completed and people have moved on to newer games that demand more performance, yet the card will still produce the heat it did 2 years earlier, even more noise and use more power than it did when new.

    I cba with this conversation any longer, there are enough reviews and comparisons out there to prove what I’ve been saying, you carry on being ignorant on the subject Laptop and I’ll carry on reading the reviews as and when they’re out, keeping me upto date for my purchases, as I actually do run modern games and see what difference they make!

    #64075

    Laptops Daddy
    Participant

    okaaay, but…

    …there are enough reviews and comparisons out there to prove what I’ve been saying.

    long as you know i dont really know what youre saying. i think you said (i wont quote it. ^ it’s there a couple of posts up) £400 will give you twice the performance of £250, £150 will let you play games, just about, but that they won’t be up to much, and that £100 buys you a budget card that’s one step up from on board.

    ^ this, coming from a guy running all his games on a high-end £120 card from a couple of years ago, and who absolutely does know better!

    i dont know about reviews. half the hardware articles out there are written by people whove yet to learn a pronoun from a contraction, much less amps or bus width from the finer points of building a balanced PC. i always skip straight to the performance figures for a rough idea of how things compare, but even then it’s not worth much.

    if you dont want the last word, i’ll take it for myself : ). an entry-level dedicated card that’s a step above onboard, is about £30. mid-range, that’ll play the odd game and work well for photoshops etc, is about £70. if you really like your games and wouldnt mind a bit of AA or AF to go with that high definition loveliness, £120-£150 will buy you a high-end card that’ll run any game out there for a couple of years to come. if money’s no object, you can double it for an extra 10 or 15% frame rate, so long as you know youre looking at about 70% depreciation in value over the first year.

    you cant just relabel high-end graphics ‘entry-level’ because some kid at bestgraphicsreviews.com, who’s probably been dabbling for two years to my ten, gets ahold of a new generation flagship £600 card that’s not yet ready for the market, and makes a few comparisons with experimental wide open settings, to find that the cards people actually buy cant quite handle it. or, you can, but it won’t change the facts when it comes to building a PC in the real world.

    #64076

    Laptops Daddy
    Participant

    damned youths, trying to make me pay £300 for a graphics card.

    i just ordered one of these:
    [attachment=0:10wc1enc]gcard1.jpg[/attachment:10wc1enc]
    peanut, i wouldnt mind your thoughts on this. this isnt for gaming, i need it for work – im having display problems.

    this one is for quite the bastard config. it’s a 6 core am3 on an am2 770 board with ddr2 ram and an nvidia gcard. what i thought i might do, is get a new 900 series amd board and swap this and the cpu to that (maybe in a couple of months). thing is, most of this stuff’s still good. i dont want to waste all my ddr2 ram. i thought i might get a cheap athlon2 dual core, make that my number two, and keep the old sli as a backup.

    anything you can give me along ‘you dont wonna do it like that, you wonna do it like this’ lines?

    #64077

    PeanutsRevenge
    Participant

    The new 9 series boards are not bringing that much over the 7/8 series, especially if you’re wanting to keep your previous CPU.
    I’m in a very similar position. A nice SLI mobo, 4GB RAM (was 6 for a while but I’ve setup a ‘business backup rig’ that won’t be tinkered with, but available when I break my main machine), massive coolers on GPUs and CPU.

    At least you can upgrade mobo and keep ya very nice CPU.

    I wouldn’t bother upgrading the mobo, not sure why you’re thinking of doing so, DDR3 extra performance will be hardly noticable, although I don’t pay much attention to rendering benchmarks.
    The increased FSB (I know it’s not FSB, but by calling it that everyone knows what I’m talking about) will probably be noticable, but only just.

    I hope your rendering software supports OpenCL and not CUDA, if it’s CUDA only, you bought the wrong board.

    #64078

    Laptops Daddy
    Participant

    ah, ty. maybe i’ll just leave the rest as it is and see how i get on.

    …massive coolers on GPUs and CPU

    Computer hardware has long supassed what the average user needs on most counts…

    going back to what you said there ^, i do partly agree. ive been reusing old skt939 coolers for ages – lovely thermalright things, bit like yours. i just tie them on with cable clips or a few screws and a strip of meccano or something when the socket standards change. it takes some fiddling, but i refuse to dump expensive coolers like that for the sake of brackets to hold them on.

    id like to see standardisation for cooler clips/brackets.

    im sure if we could line up the AMD and intel engineers for a little chat. ‘look, there’s no restiction on innovation etc. you just need to stick to a set of rules for placement of the holes.’.

    anyway, i was saying – my newer stuff seems to run cooler than anything ive had previously. i guess because there’s less load on average for day-to-day stuff.

    #64081

    Laptops Daddy
    Participant

    @peanutsrevenge wrote:

    I wouldn’t bother upgrading the mobo, not sure why you’re thinking of doing so.

    wasnt sure if itd be up to the new graphics, that and the sata bus gets saturated. im 3 width 0 on that one.

    #64085

    QuadShotz
    Participant

    Hey, I got my PSU today…shipped in the original OEM box for $35 no less. It’s black-sleeved and geeky sexy. It’s nice to check voltages…and they don’t move at all.

    I think I’ll run a 5770 easily FAIK. 😉

    Yeah, the GT460 is a sweet spot, and I prefer nVidia…but I can’t afford one. Esp. when the old socket 775/C2D E7200 would probably bottleneck it. I just want a couple more yrs outa this rig before a rebuild.

    And, I’m aiming at Elder Scrolls V, not this game as what I want to build for….sorry. 😀

    #64082

    PeanutsRevenge
    Participant

    A little light reading for you Mr Laptop

    http://www.anandtech.com/show/4955/the-bulldozer-review-amd-fx8150-tested

    If you just want the quickie version.

    It’s good (as in about level with Sandy Bridge) @ heavily threaded none FP workloads, pretty poor (sometimes slower than Phenom II) @ single threaded and heavy FP work.

    #64086

    Laptops Daddy
    Participant

    nice. 8 cores is it?

    i could have gone with a 460 or 560 instead of that 6850 for the same money. i fancied an ati and that passive cooler had buy me written on it. (turned up too. not had chance to test yet).

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