This topic contains 16 replies, has 0 voices, and was last updated by  Rommel 9 years, 10 months ago.

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  • #6246

    Rommel
    Participant

    No, not the bluegrass song, it’s the graphics settings. In playing with a few more “enhancements” (that word seems blighted) I’ve discovered that if I run in full max mode, my foggy mountains are clear. If I turn off the GL Shaders, I get foggy mountains. If this is just the way it is, no problem, but I don’t think this has been discussed.

    In case anyone should think it’s a card specific problem and want to scream: WHAT KIND OF CARD IS IT? Please read on.

    It is a nVidia GeForce Go 6600 😛

    Rommel

    #48978

    Rommel
    Participant

    Ok, it’s been over 24 hours and several of the people that should known something about the GL Shaders and the fog have logged on. Expecting that someone would have answered by now, I reread my post. Apparently I should have asked questions instead of inviting a discussion. 😉

    Question 1. – Why does the GL Shaders option destroy the fog?

    Question 2. – Is there a fix?

    Question 3. – Can I use map specific instructions to turn off GL Shaders on client machines and turn them back on when loading the next map?

    That’s enough for now.

    Signed,

    Blinded by the light

    #48979

    parasti
    Participant

    Let’s get this out of the way… The GL shader option is called “No GL shaders”, so if you enable that option the shaders will be turned off. I’d call that poor user interface design and file a bug, but for now let’s just make sure that “no” really does mean “no”.

    #48980

    Rommel
    Participant

    Hi Parasit:

    Thanks for the reply. As I mentioned, turning the GL Shaders option off returns the fog.@parasti wrote:

    Let’s get this out of the way… The GL shader option is called “No GL shaders”, so if you enable that option the shaders will be turned off. I’d call that poor user interface design and file a bug, but for now let’s just make sure that “no” really does mean “no”.

    Perhaps I should have said, putting a check mark in the box marked No GL Shaders returns the fog. Enabling this option (GL Shaders Off) gives a better frame rate so I think it’s safe to assume that enabling the option does indeed mean GL Shaders are turned off. 😉

    Running in maximum graphics mode, the fog only appears in the areas near the surround. Even bumping the fog density up past 10.0 renders very sparse fog. Ok, go up past 10, right? Wrong! You can’t a see a thing at 10.0 if you are running the game with the GL Shaders set to off. 😯 For reference, going much higher than 0.0065 with GL Shaders set to off makes the map pretty obscure.

    I hope the following example explains the problem a little better:

    User A plays wide open.
    User B plays with one of the options for slower machines.

    To use fog it appears my only options are:

    User A sees a little fog but User B can’t see a thing.
    or
    User A sees a decent map, but User B thinks the map looks great.

    Surely there is a better solution than designing the maps for the graphically challanged but to be honest, the No GL Shaders option gives a much more appealing fog effect. My initial thought was that I could turn off the shaders when running fog effect maps but after giving it a bit more thought, I’ve decided that over riding the graphics settings on the client side most likely isn’t possible nor should it be.

    For now, it appears that anyone using or considering using fog, might want to check their map(s) using both settings. After that, please join me in trying to decide which is the most desirable.

    Best wishes to all,

    Rommel

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    #48981

    Rommel
    Participant

    Dang, this is a bit premature, but …

    Here are a couple of screen shots to show you what I mean.

    Rommel

    #48982

    imported_gcamp
    Participant

    When shaders are used the OpenGL fog is switched off and the shader calculates the fog instead.

    Currently you are correct the shader fog does not match up with the OpenGL fog. This was reported a few months ago, I can’t remember by who.

    #48983

    Rommel
    Participant

    Hi Gavin:

    Thanks for the reply.
    @gcamp wrote:

    When shaders are used the OpenGL fog is switched off and the shader calculates the fog instead.

    Currently you are correct the shader fog does not match up with the OpenGL fog. This was reported a few months ago, I can’t remember by who.

    My search of the forums using the term, fog, didn’t reveal any previous posts conncerning this. I read every post revealed back to the one from an unknown guest back in 2004 that was asking about using fog as a cloaking device. Perhaps it was before that but most likely, I either missed it or the search engine failed to retrieve it for me.

    I suspect that you have had an opportunity to look over my screen shots in your screen shot thread so what do you think? Seems to me that unless there is a way to control the display a little more precisely, dropping the fog might be advisable for the time being.

    Am I correct in my assumption that altering the graphics settings on the client end isn’t possible from the server?

    Thanks Again,

    Rommel

    #48984

    imported_gcamp
    Participant

    Yes this isnt possible from the server, thinking about it, it may have been mentioned on the developer private forum.

    #48985

    PeanutsRevenge
    Participant

    Hey Rommel.
    When I finally get my gfx card I’ll try out the map and see what its shaders make of the fog, as, my understanding of what Gavin said would suggest that the card would take control of transparency away from the API (ALU whatever it is), but until then I will be unable to as my card can barely handle shaders (it only has 1 or 2 shader pipelines)

    What server is it on and how many maps might I have to play through to come across it… if, that is, the map is live?

    P.S they are nice screen grabs!

    #48986

    Rommel
    Participant

    Hi Again:

    @gcamp wrote:

    Yes this isnt possible from the server, thinking about it, it may have been mentioned on the developer private forum.

    Ok, thanks for the reply, I didn’t think that would be advisable. So, what do you suggest? I can’t very well make the map obscure for those choosing to turn off the GL Shaders before joining the game while allowing those choosing not to follow the directive to have an unobstructed view.

    This being the case, it appears that using fog is rather pointless for now.

    So, where do we go from here? The fog is VERY nice properly utilized but not knowing the Eye Candy Effect (ECE) for both options I’m not able to discern if sacrificing the GL Shaders for the short term is desirable.

    Personally, I’m leaning more toward killing the GL Shaders until a balance can be acheived between the OpenGL fog and the Shader fog but as I said above, I’m not a very good judge. The two screen shots I posted in your screen shot thread are all I’m really using to decide. 😉

    Opinions from both camps … er … both sides are not only accepted, they are encouraged. 😉

    Thanks in advance,

    Rommel

    #48987

    Rommel
    Participant

    Hi PeanutsRevenge:

    Thanks for the nice words.
    @peanutsrevenge wrote:

    Hey Rommel.
    When I finally get my gfx card I’ll try out the map and see what its shaders make of the fog, as, my understanding of what Gavin said would suggest that the card would take control of transparency away from the API (ALU whatever it is), but until then I will be unable to as my card can barely handle shaders (it only has 1 or 2 shader pipelines)

    What server is it on and how many maps might I have to play through to come across it… if, that is, the map is live?

    P.S they are nice screen grabs!

    It’s one of the maps I’ve been working on for the Apocalypse Extreme mod. I’ve been forced to concentrate on extreme maps due to the jerk that named the mod. Oh yeah, that was me. 😉 Hopefully, I’ll get something online soon and you can show me a video capture of it in action. Most maps are pretty slow on my machine (19 FPS average) and I’ve never seen any of them played on another machine.

    Side note. The screen shots posted were the Scorched version (no objects except trees) so hopefully one of them will get some consideration for addition into the screen shot gallery. 😉 What I disclosed was only a very small section of a 512 X 512 playing field that I’m tremendously excited about but won’t be making public until I’m sure that we have a fair way for it to be implemented.

    I hope to see you ALL of you at Apoc Champions soon, but really, I’m tickeled silly to see you anywhere.

    Thanks for your time,

    Rommel

    #48988

    jdog
    Participant

    @gcamp wrote:

    When shaders are used the OpenGL fog is switched off and the shader calculates the fog instead.

    Currently you are correct the shader fog does not match up with the OpenGL fog. This was reported a few months ago, I can’t remember by who.

    *Waves Hand* It was me. Post here

    Dang OpenGL messing up my cavern. Any chance of this being “hammered” out?
    I could lend you a hammer if you need one. 😉

    #48989

    Rommel
    Participant

    Hi jdog:

    Thanks for the reply. Yeah, I read your post before posting this thread but didn’t see anything about the different settings, GL Shaders On -vs- GL Shaders Off. I didn’t understand what you meant by getting the old fog back. The good news is, it’s still there. 😉 Just turn off the GL Shaders.
    @jdog wrote:

    @gcamp wrote:

    When shaders are used the OpenGL fog is switched off and the shader calculates the fog instead.

    Currently you are correct the shader fog does not match up with the OpenGL fog. This was reported a few months ago, I can’t remember by who.

    *Waves Hand* It was me. Post here

    Dang OpenGL messing up my cavern. Any chance of this being “hammered” out?
    I could lend you a hammer if you need one. 😉

    Killing the GL Shaders sounds like something that mght start a riot so perhaps the hammer isn’t a very good idea, but I did think about it. 😉

    I’m not experienced enough with the GL Shaders to know how much we lose by killing them. I’ve tried playing with them off and the water and maps still look good but I’m sure the differnece is noticable on a better computer or perhaps I’m just missing it.

    I’m definately prejudiced against them for what they did to my map. 😉

    Do you have any suggestions for using fog?
    Have you found a setting that gives decent fog using the GL Shaders?

    Other than balancing the fog so that it displays the same with both settings, I can’t think of very many options.

    Of the two options I’ve considered only one seems feasable. Allow the server the option kill the GL Shaders on a map by map basis. This would require returning the GL Shaders to On for clients using them before the change but not changing the state of those that don’t use them.

    The other option is to allow servers the option to reject anyone using GL Shaders. I’m not sure I would like that, seems a little draconian. If that was your only choice would you kill the GL Shaders for an entire game?

    Would you use that feature on your server(s)?

    The fog maps can be very cool with the GL Shaders off, but if it’s you and me out here screaming in the wind … let me know how it turns out, I’m going back in the house. 😛

    Rommel

    #48990

    jdog
    Participant

    I’ve found no settings other then turning the GL shaders off to have the fog be showed like it was in the “old way” it was. 🙁

    Other then that, I can’t do much of anything right now other then just work on other maps till Gavin can find the right fix (no rush Gavin, I can make some evil maps without it. 🙂 )

    #48991

    PeanutsRevenge
    Participant

    Hey Rommel.
    Well, im all gfx’d up and can keep a secret if you’d like me to try it.
    SHOULD have the same results, but ya never really know (well, ‘I’ don’t really know).

    Your getting about the same fps as myself then, running full effects @ 1680×1050

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