This topic contains 36 replies, has 0 voices, and was last updated by  Deathstryker 12 years, 6 months ago.

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  • #18036

    hobbesme
    Participant

    @gcamp wrote:

    I agree blah1 looks better, although it is bigger.

    IF we can minimize/maximize the Buy window, then it is my opinion that bigger is better (given the other options presented thus far).

    @gcamp wrote:

    How about this, although it would probably make buying selling things longer as you would have to select an item before buying/selling.

    Adding an extra click for EACH item extends the time it takes to Buy by approximately 0.05 to 0.3 seconds. Some of us veteran players use ALL the time to Buy/Sell. Making it take slightly longer per item will decrease the overall Buy/Sell efficiency.

    Therefore, it is my opinion that your option NOT be implemented since this would decrease the overall effective Buy/Sell time.

    #18037

    poolee
    Participant

    Hi all

    Rather than minimising, which would then require the mouse to moved right down to the bottom left (or right, or centre) of the screen to then click again to bring the winfow up again, and THEN move the mouse BACK UP the screen… can you see where this would be inefficient??… how about making the window “Roll-up” to the tab if double-clicked on (or some similar mouse-type (or keyboard?) action that doesn’t require the mouse to move anywhere?

    So, there you have the buy screen… wait what does my position look like?… dbl-click… ah, not good, better buy some funkies and a couple of force shields… dbl-click, buy funkys, buy f-shields, sell one f-shield… wait, what about <<>>, where are they located… dbl-click… ah, over there, not too dangerous at this satge but better buy fuel… dbl-click… buy fuel x2… ok, go!

    My 2.83 cents worth (conversion from kiwi cents to US cents)

    Cheers
    Poolee

    #18038

    Hippopotamus
    Participant

    GREAT IDEA POOLEyes i want it!!!

    #18039

    BOY
    Participant

    @deathstryker wrote:

    Here are a couple of ideas I have come up with…

    Its clear that the buy and sell buttons, if stacked, should be staggerd or spaced somehow in order to prevent accidents. Also, if the buy and sell are put into the same row, the price for buy should not
    be adjacent and close to the sell button to prevent cofusion (as in both blah1 and blah2).

    having said that. Deathstrykers blah2 is fine, a little ugliness is fine if it is effective. (might only be ugly cause its new) to make it look a little better, blah2 could be made to look a bit more like the lower part n gavin’s last untitled (with a stagger)

    blah1 howver is the better option especially if we could minimize, as it would require less scrolling. I would suggest that the item and quanity both be centered and that the sell option and prices be moved over to the left side like this

    SELL ($$/1) [##qty — WEAPON] BUY ($$/2)

    @poolee wrote:

    Rather than minimising, which would then require the mouse to moved right down to the bottom left (or right, or centre) of the screen to then click again to bring the winfow up again, and THEN move the mouse BACK UP the screen… can you see where this would be inefficient??… how about making the window “Roll-up” to the tab if double-clicked on (or some similar mouse-type (or keyboard?) action that doesn’t require the mouse to move anywhere?

    glad you brought this up, This is what I had pictured all the while, so thank you for clarifying. Although I think bringing back the buy window with single click is fine,. the window should roll up to a bar, on the bar should be a maximize / minimize button. Simple and fast, no dragging involved.

    #18040

    Deathstryker
    Participant

    I’ll see if I can come up with some more ideas….

    #18041

    Deathstryker
    Participant

    It’s gonna be hard to put all that stuff right there on that window without some sort of compromise. Either the window will have to be bigger, more clicks being required, or more scrolling required. I don’t think it’s possible to to avoid all those things. However what most people seem to agree on just reading some of the comments is that extra clicks seem to be completely out of the question.

    #18042

    hobbesme
    Participant

    @deathstryker wrote:

    It’s gonna be hard to put all that stuff right there on that window without some sort of compromise. Either the window will have to be bigger, more clicks being required, or more scrolling required. I don’t think it’s possible to to avoid all those things. However what most people seem to agree on just reading some of the comments is that extra clicks seem to be completely out of the question.

    Let’s think about this logically (no disrespect to DS) :

    1. For the players that already move the Buy window out of the way to survey the mapboard before buying & then move the Buy window back onto the screen to Buy — that’s a total of two clicks (per moving the window out-of-the-way & then back; but I only do this ONCE per Buy, not several times like poolee suggested).

      So even if we make it so you have to click to minimize (or roll-up or move-out-of-way) the Buy window & then click again to bring the window back, there is NO difference in the amount of clicks required.

      This is a Big O(1) constant change — no difference in Buy/Sell efficiency.

    2. Gavin’s suggestion to select an item before buying/selling adds an extra click for EACH item … Making it take slightly longer per item [and] decrease the overall Buy/Sell efficiency.

      This is a Big O(n) linear change — a slight but noticeable degredation in Buy/Sell efficiency.

    Thus, any solution that implements NO change in the amount of clicks as it stands now should be acceptable; but I hesitate to endorse any solutions which increase the number of clicks — especially if the clicks are PER item.

    The real winner would be a solution that implements the desired feature AND reduces the current number of window clicks or movements.

    That would be a winner.

    #18043

    Willis
    Participant

    Regarding the rollup / minimize menu – I too was thinking a sort of roll-up aproach would be the rout taken but as BOY said its good to clearify. The thing is regardless of how or what techniques are done in modification of the BUY/SELL Window, we can have this emplanted. Its not dependent on anything else honestly its just a matter of emplanting the functionality and thats that.

    I agree with Hobbes lets take a logical aproach to this; however I’m going to take a different aproach to trouble shooting this:

    There are as we seem to agree 3 fundamental goals to accomplish in order to accept a merger of BUY and SELL.

    1) Layout is clean and clear, chances of making a mistake is slim.
    2) Layout is organized and displayed in the most time efficient mannor possible.
    3) The layout simply looks good.

    Before I go into some logical deduction I wish to analize the 3 entries so far:

    Deathstryker’s both Blah1 and Blah2 are very functional, Buttons and their corresponding information (say the buy button with the buying cost..) are clearly displayed and very understandable. However Blah1 is quite large, Something I feared in my previous post. A menu that takes up the entire screen even if its functional never “feels” right. It can feel intimidating to suddenly see this huge thing flash up infront of your face.

    Blah2, does not seem so apealing at first, but thats because its very busy – all the important data is tightly grouped in a nice clean fashion. Button’s are closer togeather and allow for some better streamline clicking.

    So if its not clear; I’d take Blah2 over Blah1 myself.

    Gavin’s design, I love. Its very organized and very simple. Gavin – maybe you could work it to include a weapon description 😉 . Now as its been said Gavin’s aproach may not be as button friendly as before, due to the extra click. But really is it that huge? Consider all the times a person jumps between the BUY and SELL menu’s to squeeze in those final dollars for that huge bomb or that sheild. Your really avoiding all of that.

    Us experienced players will learn to adapt and be able to capitalize on this menu. Plus lets look into the big picture, if the “favorites” feature is completed then we can REALLY capitalize on that. Imagine if on gavin’s example, a list of items to purchase from the size of his Invetory menu. Some people don’t even play with that many items. (few .. but some 😆 ). Also another big picture, is your going to save some time when there is a quick-hide ability on the BUY/SELL menu, so instead of dragging it to the side, then fighting to drag it back.. 🙂



    To reflect all the way back on my 3 points, I think order of importance lyes in the order I listed them. First make certain nobody is going to get a headach and throw a crow-bar though their monitor becuase they make mistakes. For this to occure I think things need to have space and breathing room, don’t have a system where button’s are all clustered togeather side by side (Such as Gavin’s origional postings of the Weapon/Defense/Inv layout). Because people suddenly get very confident in how they move and click, and suddenly you have people purchasing or selling the wrong item, or buying when they ment to sell, selling when they ment to buy.

    Once you have that, you need to consider efficiency. Its a fact there is only a limited amount of time to observe the playing field, make your decisions, and feel confident. Time is money, litterly. IMO in a small window, to navigate the mouse around is only limited to the speed of your wrist and how clean your mouse’s ball or optics are. The largest time consumer is the comprehension of locating weapon, reading cost, reading sell value, and locate the correspoding button. So to have a large menu where data is spread out can cause some mental delays. Such is the delema in Blah1.

    Lastly we just need something that looks and feels right. Blah2 as said is very busy or ugly pending on your viewpoint, even though it does the job quite nicely. We need something that has smooth lines and simple formats, not something that bevels in and out varying in shape and design depending on all available options.

    #18044

    Apollo Tangent
    Participant

    Uhm,

    Did anyone see the Naked GUI and how it can allow you to scroll about the screen un-obstructed?

    or the suggestion for a bind key feature to minimize the buy menu?

    HMMM…

    Apollo

    #18045

    poolee
    Participant

    I think we see it slightly differently Willis – but that’s ok, as we’re all entitled to our opinions 🙂

    Blah2
    ====

    … my view on Blah2 is the there are fewer items per page and therefor that would become more tedious and difficult to quickly find item. Thats is compounded by the fact that values are intersperced every second line, breaking up the alphabetical flow of the weapons.

    This would be less of an issue if we could add items to a faves tab, cos then we would only have a limited number of items to deal with, ie problem solved for Blah 2.

    Blah1
    ====

    …my view on Blah1 is more favourable because of the nice alphabetical arrangement. The width would be a problem if the text is too big for someone at lower resolutions – not sure if the menu size is intelligently resized according to lower res’s though… Could the Sell $ column be replaced with tooltip $ values? (which show immediately when passing the mouse over the Sell button? Honestly, when I’m selling, I very rarely look at how much per Missile, Funky etc I’m getting, as it’s usually a fixed value and doesn’t appear to be affected by market fluctuations.

    @hobbesme wrote:

    For the players that already move the Buy window out of the way to survey the mapboard before buying & then move the Buy window back onto the screen to Buy — that’s a total of two clicks (per moving the window out-of-the-way & then back; but I only do this ONCE per Buy, not several times like poolee suggested).

    Yeah, ok, maybe I was exagerating, but it does happen often enough that such a feature would become invaluable. I’m sure others have moved the buy window more than once though…?

    Anyhow, lets not lose sight of one of the primary goals of this thread – a favourites (or “favorites” for the Americans amoung us 😉 ) menu that would reduce a lot of the tab too-ing and fro-ing that currently happens when buying and selling!

    💡 Here’s an idea….. Perhaps Blah2 would be fine for just the Faves tab??????? And leave the other Tabs be??????

    Cheers
    Poolee 🙂

    #18046

    Willis
    Participant

    Honestly, when I’m selling, I very rarely look at how much per Missile, Funky etc I’m getting, as it’s usually a fixed value and doesn’t appear to be affected by market fluctuations.

    That poolee sounds like one of (assuming theres more then one) the reasons we see things differently. Myself I always am looking at the selling price and trying to forsee my overall return. Lets say after round 1 I make my standard purchases and am down to 13,000. I’d wanna try selling enough misc items to make myself back upto 20,000. I don’t wanna sell more then I need to and I don’t wanna sell items that could be nessessary to weild. So to have that data displayed automaticly infront of me is quite valuable.

    Here’s an idea….. Perhaps Blah2 would be fine for just the Faves tab??????? And leave the other Tabs be??????

    IMO I think we need to stop with this idea here; I know your lookin for an easy and effective solution – such as mix and match the layouts pending on which tab. However I really wish to advise using one template design for each tab. It would be very confusing to jump from tab to tab, every time seeing something different not expecting buttons where they actually are. Plus it does not look the best;

    #18047

    BOY
    Participant

    @hobbesme wrote:

    Let’s think about this logically (no disrespect to DS) :

    1. For the players that already move the Buy window out of the way to survey the mapboard before buying & then move the Buy window back onto the screen to Buy — that’s a total of two clicks (per moving the window out-of-the-way & then back; but I only do this ONCE per Buy, not several times like poolee suggested).

      So even if we make it so you have to click to minimize (or roll-up or move-out-of-way) the Buy window & then click again to bring the window back, there is NO difference in the amount of clicks required.

      This is a Big O(1) constant change — no difference in Buy/Sell efficiency.

    2. Gavin’s suggestion to select an item before buying/selling adds an extra click for EACH item … Making it take slightly longer per item [and] decrease the overall Buy/Sell efficiency.

      This is a Big O(n) linear change — a slight but noticeable degredation in Buy/Sell efficiency.

    Thus, any solution that implements NO change in the amount of clicks as it stands now should be acceptable; but I hesitate to endorse any solutions which increase the number of clicks — especially if the clicks are PER item.

    The real winner would be a solution that implements the desired feature AND reduces the current number of window clicks or movements.

    ITS ALL ABOUT MOUSE MOVEMENT !

    I think there is a slight problem with your logic here hobbes. extra clicks are not the key problem, think about how fast a click takes place. A few extra clicks are nothing. the movement of the window from side to side, the scrolling, and the movement up to the (and back up to) the tabs is 95% of the time waste. a few extra clicks can SAVE TIME. its about simplifying the window, buttons, and scroll sizes.

    For instance. Simply widening the scroll bar (I think its very narrow) would allow sloppier and faster movement to the scroll from left to right.

    and Gavins solution …..it is going to prevent the need to………

    BUY, move to SELL tab, scroll, SELL, change tabs again, and then again. this has to be done several times if you need your sell money for buying more stuff. If you buy things in the right order – expesive bundles first then you can get more

    Personally ONE HELLUVA great idea would be to reduce bundle sizes, especially parachutes! WHo ever keeps 8 of them?!! Logically speaking, the most efficient way would be to buy things in reasonalble bundles and only sell something after a round in which you did not use what you planned to use. Buying and immediately selling is the real problem – to be accurate. Anyways, since I feel that everyone pretty much just accepts this (as I basically have), that the only way to improve is to redisign the screen

    Lastly, between willis’ and poolee’s equally valuable comments, the main thing is what willis said. there should not be drastic differences in the layouts of the different tabs. The main thing, a favorites tab in which you can both buy and sell (no matter which blah you use) will save loads of time.

    #18048

    Deathstryker
    Participant

    Poor Gavin. All these thoughts are so different from each other. I wonder if this will drive him insane.

    #18049

    imported_gcamp
    Participant

    @deathstryker wrote:

    Poor Gavin. All these thoughts are so different from each other. I wonder if this will drive him insane.

    Wibble wibble kerplunk….

    #18050

    Deathstryker
    Participant

    Look what we’ve done to him! Now new versions will contain non sensible things like elves and pink elephants!

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