This topic contains 19 replies, has 0 voices, and was last updated by  BigBear 10 years, 1 month ago.

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  • #6030

    parasti
    Participant

    It turns out that when people use auto-defence on a server with delayed defence enabled, everyone can see their shield before making the shot. I’d call that a bug. The expected behaviour is for the shield to pop up after making the shot regardless of whether auto-defence is used or not.

    #46594

    Thrax
    Participant

    @parasti wrote:

    It turns out that when people use auto-defence on a
    server with delayed defence enabled, everyone can see their shield
    before making the shot. I’d call that a bug. The expected behaviour is
    for the shield to pop up after making the shot regardless of whether auto-
    defence is used or not.

    Auto-Def is designed to bring up Defences ‘before’ the aiming cycles start.
    it’s doing exactly as it’s supposed to. Syncronous games such as online
    rarely need it. unless you are absent-minded like some of us.

    In a sequential game where auto-def is more usefull, you’ll be glad it doesn’t wait longer.

    #46595

    parasti
    Participant

    Let’s put this straight. Auto-defence is an accessory, delayed defence is a server setting. Auto-defence is available in a simultaneous on-line game on a server with delayed defence enabled and it behaves contrary to the advertised behaviour of “delayed defence” and that is a bug.

    For what it’s worth, I am not merely considering the possibility, I saw this happen on Main today. Someone had a shield up as soon as he finished buying stuff while everyone else’s shields popped up only after making the shot.

    #46596

    Thrax
    Participant

    @parasti wrote:

    Let’s put this straight. Auto-defence is an accessory,
    delayed defence is a server setting. Auto-defence is available in a
    simultaneous on-line game on a server with delayed defence enabled and
    it behaves contrary to the advertised behaviour of “delayed defence” and
    that is a bug.

    For what it’s worth, I am not merely considering the possibility, I saw this
    happen on Main today. Someone had a shield up as soon as he finished
    buying stuff while everyone else’s shields popped up only after making
    the shot.

    Yup, Auto-Defence has been an item since the 2D game was created,
    allowing you to load shields and chutes before the other players got
    thier turn to shoot you. It was mostly needed for Sequential games,
    where each player took thier turn 1 at a time.. not all at once.(Simultaneous)

    It’s function has mostly been un-needed for online play. But the intention
    of the device is to do exactly what it is doing now. Loading shields and
    chutes right after buying.. Before other players start to aim . What you
    see is not a Bug or error, it’s the propper function of the device. If you
    wanted the shield to be hidden. Don’t use the auto-def device.

    #46597

    parasti
    Participant

    I never even knew I had such difficulty getting my point across! Let’s forget auto-defence and have a look at delayed defence for a second, shall we.

    Delayed defence works like this: you put up your shield at any point while aiming, you see it show up immediately, but everyone else sees it show up only after everyone has made the shot. As a result, it doesn’t matter whether or not you put your shield at the beginning of the tick-tock or at the end of it, it is not an advantage or disadvantage to anyone.

    Now, let’s have a look again at auto-defence in such a setting. This is how it should work: after you buy your stuff, the shield is automatically put up and you immediately see it, but everyone else sees it only after everyone has made the shot. (The “delayed” in “delayed defence”, makes sense, doesn’t it?) This is how it works: after you buy your stuff, the shield is automatically put up and you immediately see it, and so does everyone else. (Take “delayed” out of “delayed defence”, and you have your bug.)

    Make sure you know what delayed defence is and how it works. You make no mention of it in either of your comments, so I can’t help but assume that you may not know what I’m talking about.

    #46598

    a banana
    Participant

    Thrax is a server admin and a mod developer — he knows what he’s talking about.

    I believe that the point he’s trying to make is that even on a server with delayed defense, the auto-defense item works as it is designed to do. I guess it’s debatable whether it should or should not work like that, but it’s not apparently a bug.

    However, in a simultaneous shooting game (which is what most or all of the online S3D games seem to be) it is pretty much a waste of money — you gain no real benefit from it, other than not having to remember to manually activate your defenses.

    a banana

    #46599

    parasti
    Participant

    I am not arguing about the usefulness (or uselessness) of auto-defence. However, as I already pointed out above, there are people that use it. Whether or not they should is an entirely different matter which I have absolutely no interest in discussing.

    If indeed as you say Thrax is well aware of what I am talking about and auto-defence is deliberately designed this way, then the design is broken and should be fixed. Auto-defence in a delayed defence setting should work as described in my previous comment, not the way it works currently.

    #46600

    BigBear
    Participant

    As far as behaviour goes, I’d have to agree with para and say that this is a bug in the mentioned context. Useless item or not, it’s a bug.

    Having said that, if someone that reads this for some bizarre reason doesn’t know it yet, listen up. Auto-defense is the most useless item ever in simultaneous games. Never buy it!!! Ever!!!

    #46601

    Irishbandit
    Participant

    Voting with Thrax on this one. Its a feature not a bug if you don’t like it don’t buy auto-defense.

    #46602

    PeanutsRevenge
    Participant

    it is definately a feature.

    Those with auto-defense can/will/do put up their shields and chutes even before most people have finished buying, that is what it is meant to do.

    It doesnt take long for people to stop using it to save money and to hide their cards until its time to play them!
    The ONE and ONLY use of auto defense in simultanious games is that its hard to forget to put ya defenses in place, which I believe EVERYONE does now n then!

    To clarify, auto-defense allows you to put up shields n chutes BEFORE anyone moves, hence negating delayed defense!

    #46603

    BigBear
    Participant

    I have a hard time believing that auto-defense was created with simultanious games and delayed defense in mind. Looks an awful lot like an unanticipated user case to me. If it isn’t, I certainly do not see why it can’t be changed into something at least slightly useful.

    #46604

    Thrax
    Participant

    @bigbear wrote:

    I have a hard time believing that auto-defense was created
    with simultanious games and delayed defense in mind.

    It wasnt. It was created 15+ years ago with Sequential play in mind.
    Using 1 pc, 1 keyboard, and 2-8 players(human or not), taking turns 1 by 1.

    Playing S3D now, in solo-mode, most of the single-player games are
    created sequential to round-robin the shots. It is in those places that
    Automatic Defences loaded at the start are usefull.

    However, Few of you play solo, and even fewer servers online ever try a
    sequential game. So the use of that 1 accessory has become rare; Only
    by those with a lousy memory, or just don’t know what it’s for.. thinking it
    will automatically re-raise shields.

    It fullfills it’s designed purpose admirably. If you are using it in an online
    game, it’s still doing it’s job. It acts as if the shields were raised the ‘turn’
    before you started aiming, which would naturally show your defence just
    like using the shields manually the turn before.

    Don’t want it to show your shields? Don’t use it.

    #46605

    parasti
    Participant

    @thrax wrote:

    It acts as if the shields were raised the ‘turn’
    before you started aiming, which would naturally show your defence just like using the shields manually the turn before.

    Huh? No, it would (naturally) appear as if the shield had been activated at the beginning of the turn, not at the end of the previous one. Regardless of what the under-the-hood implementation of auto-defence is, this is how it “appears” to work and thus it “appears” to be broken with respect to a delayed defence setting. When something appears to be broken but is not — that is crappy design. Telling me to not use auto-defence will not change this, it will still appear broken. Telling me that auto-defence was created 15 years ago without taking delayed defence into account will not change this. This is not 15 years ago, auto-defence is provided as an accessory in simultaneous on-line games and delayed defence exists. Fixing it to work as expected taking delayed defence into account or (for all I personally care) removing it will help immensely and will make me shut up momentarily. (Except for a “Thank you”.)

    #46606

    imported_gcamp
    Participant

    Ok, how about we just decide what we want the behaviour to be 🙂

    #46607

    Rommel
    Participant

    I vote that there are other more pressing things to persue. It works fine. If there was a time when you wanted to show a shield early, it will do the job for you even though delayed defenses are on.

    @gcamp wrote:

    Ok, how about we just decide what we want the behaviour to be 🙂

    If you don’t want your shield shown early….dont use auto defense. This isn’t that difficult of a concept to master. Apoc Champions ran for months with delayed defenses and NO ONE ever complained about auto defense.

    I must go destroy the world now. Krieg ohne Hass

    Sincerely,

    Generalfeldmarschall Erwin J. E. Rommel

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