This topic contains 56 replies, has 0 voices, and was last updated by  Deathbal 8 years, 9 months ago.

  • Author
    Posts
  • #54418

    Rommel
    Participant

    Hi Outer:

    Thank you for the kind reply. Since you “APPEAR” to have read my succinct post and given thought to what I said, I’ve chosen your post for my detailed explanation. Hopefully it is easily understood by all.

    @outer wrote:

    @rommel

    First of all hi, again 😉

    For all the stuff you said in your post i am sure you must have enough, reliable evidence to prove your points.

    I can adaquately substantiate my points but proving them would be tricky.

    Point 1 – We have admins that don’t respect the rules. – Public Record :
    Admins that use their standing to encourage ganging up on players for saying no to rules games or for not playing the way the admin tells them to play are not being respectful of the server rules. You can find sufficient proof of this occuring in both, the forums and the game logs.

    I did not accuse anyone of breaking rules.

    Point 2 – We have admins that appear to be using assisted methods. – Public Record :
    Kill Ratios – A high kill ratio combined with requiring the full time to shoot makes a player appear suspicious to the admins. There are admins that meet this standard. Assisted shooting, although supposedly frowned upon, is not considered cheating, according to my understanding of what was decided by the admins.

    To the best of my knowledge, there is no way that a player can tell the difference between assisted shooting and cheating. This makes it imperative that players never publicly accuse anyone of “cheating.”

    I have not accussed anyone of cheating.

    Point 3 – We have admins that don’t know how to set up and run a server. – Not Public Record :
    I can not divulge much on this without upsetting Big Bear, but there are posts (not from him) that substantiate this claim. People that can’t set up and operate a server can’t be expected to make changes to the set up.

    Point 4 – Don’t expect any help from them and you won’t be dissapointed.

    It would be foolish to expect help from anyone that is either unwilling or unable to help. This seems self explanatory.

    Rational :

    When questioned recently (more than once) on my thoughts about whether certain players were cheating, I refused to register a complaint with the admins that asked. My standard answer is, “It doesn’t matter, I’m still able to kill them.” Then if pressed further, “No one cares and I’m not complaining.” Hopefully they still recall these conversations.

    This thread seems to be ample evidence from a justifiably frustrated new player, that the problems we have discussed ad nauseum, have not been adaquately addressed. My reply may have been distasteful to some, but it is my honest assessment of why complaining to the admins is a waste of time.

    The admins, as a whole, prefer the way things are currently structured even though the current structure does not favor honest shooters.

    In light of the recent flurry of amazing shooting and the whisper messages from the admins, I have asked some of them to reset the shot timer on the main server to 20 seconds for a single game. Some have said that they don’t know how or that they can’t do that but none have complied.

    Gavin authorized the admins to make reasonable changes, months ago. Making a short shot timer for a single game is not an unreasonable request and should be simple for anyone holding the title of Administrator. This is an excellent method of exposing someone if you suspect them of being less than honorable as twenty seconds leaves very little time for monkey business. It is certainly more reliable than whispering around the room asking people if they think someone is cheating.

    Someone said in a humours post here, “If I miss, you must be cheating!” What made it so incrediablly funny was that in spite of how ridiculous it is, there must have been times when all of us have felt that way, at least for a shot or two. I know that I have. I laughed my ass off.

    Asking the players that question is asking for trouble.

    I did go so far recently, as to suggest, I think it was to Mandy, a Super Shooter Sunday where the main server shot timer is set to 20 seconds. The idea being that on one weekend day per week, the server allows honest shooters to show their skill. Hopefully this is under consideration. If not for the main server one day a week, then perhaps an advanced server specifically set up to maximize honest shooting.

    @outer wrote:

    It seems the problem you state must be some other problem non-related to aimbot issue but more like admin concerns. Furthermore, your solutions don’t solve anything…

    No, my post wasn’t supposed to be about the admins in general as much as it was a rebuttal to the continuing misinformation about “immunized” mods and encouraging the players to complain about cheating. Although I feel confident that Thrax has implemented some deterrents, and rightly so, he does not have the server side options required to claim that he has immunized his mods.

    If the admins had a serious desire to curtail assisted shooting, they could have obviously implemented better control methods months ago. True immunization may not ever happen but being sufficiently medicated to prevent excessive suffering would be nice in the alternative.

    Misinformation bothers me in case I haven’t ever told anyone that.

    Being one of the more outspoken opponents of any type of assisted shooting, I find it absurd to rely on the players to report suspicious shooters. Most everyone should look suspicious some of the time. Even worse is to tell them that you will get rid of the players that they report just because of something that may have been said in jest. I have witnessed admins saying things like, I need to tune up my aim bot. Perhaps this is what this player witnessed and reported, I can’t say. Reguardless, you can’t whack everyone that says something like that, even if they should know better. There would soon be no whackers left to whack those that needed whacking.

    If you want to be helpful:

    Tell them to be ruthless. To proudly use any weapon or defense available. That MCB games put them at a maximum disadvantage. To use fuel and the landscape to their benefit. That survival is the key to winning but that they can’t survive long without killing. Or simply tell them to use everything the game provides as effectively as their cash will allow.

    The posts from myself, Legion and others that have complained about fairness should be sufficient to prove the futility. My advise in the past is the same as it is now. You have to find a way to deal with it. My suggestion number 2 works very well for me. It allows one to maintain their self respect and obtain kills at the cost of being disrespected by those that do not respect themselves. I can see no downside to this method.

    There is a video linked here someplace by Rom L. that indicated that a 5 second shot clock might be sufficient in some instances but that would be like, crazy fast daddyo, even for him. However, 20 seconds seems sufficient to encourage most of the problem shooters to get with the program without penalizing anyone for their past behaviour or the new players for their inexperience.

    Using a variety of map sizes or variable gravity is an easily implemented and effective deterrent too. The only thing that I saw accomplished before, is that some people got banned and delayed defenses were implemented. Nothing else really seemed to change.

    Banning people is not a very reasonable solution to this problem.

    @outer wrote:

    @rommel wrote:

    Get cozy with the cheaters and get them to help you.

    That is just not right man! I hope that was sarcasm and that you are not encouraging that the community holds in his arms aimbot users.

    It appears that you have singled out one sentence in an effort to prove a point while ignoring it’s obvious relationship to the rest of the statements. Taking things out of context is something I would expect from someone without a reasonable argument so I’m sure you can imagine that I was a little surprised. Perhaps you were trying to spur me to say something in my own defense for my own good. I’m going to go with that. Well done!

    There are (in my opinion) ONLY 3 valid avenues currently open to players that are disturbed by the “appearance” of cheating.

    1. Stop playing Scorched 3D on-line. – Yes that works but withdrawl could be painful. Not reccomended.

    2. Use what the game provides to help level the field. – This is what I have been advocating since learning of the crude hacks, the square counters and discovering the power of the VERBOTEN weapons that I previously felt were amatuerish.

    Decent players upset by dirt? I THINK NOT !!!

    3. Get cozy with the cheaters and get them to help you. – If new players are afraid to play anything other than MCB or forbidden from using certain weapons for fear that one of the admins will tell everyone to gang up on them, then that seems like the only other option available to them if they hope to get a kill now and then. Initially help would be gifting, trucing, taking out the biggest threat to them first, giving them round wins, etc.. It could also eventually lead to the disclosure of assisted shooting methods.

    Of course, this is not what I want. More assisted shooters would complicate things for everyone, even the assisted shooters.

    Hiding the “cheating” as was suggested in something I read recently is self defeatist. You can’t hide a wart on the end of your nose for long, no matter how much powder you apply. This misinformation only serves to temporairily hide assisted shooting from the players.

    Not only that, I suspect it leaves a bad impression on those that stick around long enough to learn that they have been deceived. This does not seem like a good way to foster a new generation of honest shooters.

    The ability to use a hack, aim bot, and other assisted methods has not been eliminated. There is currently no vaccine.

    @outer wrote:

    Even tough i see your point Rommel and i think i understand you…(OMG is this good or bad 😕 )

    On the other hand, every game has this kind of problems. Admins do they job trying to keep safe and fair the servers from this, but surely it is a non ending problem. We must live with it, we must deal with it, we must fight it.

    It is a good thing for us to think whether we agree or not. It is even better if reason, instead of emotions, should prevail.

    All the admins need to do for now, if they truely wish to fight it, is to implement some of the the control methods they have available. We do not need another witch hunt.

    You did a marvelous job (from what I’ve heard) with the MCB contest and I wish you much success with the other Admins on making some changes. Wind on shot, might be ok for a contest, but I don’t reccomend it for the servers.

    In any event, Acid banned me on Wednesday without any explaination. If I violated a rule that resulted in the banning, it would have been nice to tell me what it was and ask me if I had anything to say for myself before banishing me to fight those dreadful Apoc Champions. Those are some seriously cheating bots! Even I can’t beat them.

    Best of luck,

    Rommel

    #54419

    bazzz
    Participant

    Nice post rom, reminds me of the good old times 😉

    But just to read your lengthy post might be asking too much for some people.Ill try to make a short post on how i interpretate what you are saying and what i think about it.

    Point 1&2 are about past events where players had some difficulties with admins, something that cannot be avoided, but i guess there is a point to be made how things could be changed for the better(altough i dont know what is done out of public sight it has seemed not to work all the time)
    Im not too sure beyond that if there is much relevance,and people have moved on(i could be wrong)

    Point 3- There may be admins who have less technical knowledge than some players, but i guess if an admin hasnt got the technical knowledge that doesnt exclude him from being usefull in other tasks(maybe i dont understand what is expected from a voluntaity position) and one could try to find an admin with the relevant knowledge, im sure they are around.

    Point 4-Yes the only remedy for dissapointment is not to have any expectations,but to make this point about “them” is unneccesary.

    What are our expectations as a gaming community really? The way i see it there should be a lot more players than there are at the moment,to me it seems there are some new players but hardly enough to fill even one server, forget about the mod servers. Why is a great game like this not attracting more players?Maybe we want it to be like this- an obscure game for the veteran players wich shouldnt have too many “noobs” coming in.Perhaps it is something in the gameplay-too hard for beginners? Or maybe there is just not a strong enough community with a vision of direction for the future, and the coherence to work together to make neccesary changes.
    I hope scorched 3d has a bright future istead of slowly sliding away, and i believe anyone who has the same hopes should be willing to work together to do whats needed instead of fighting amongst another.

    Nah im being naive, its not like we are able to change things for the better.

    #54420

    pastor of muppets
    Participant

    Nice post Rom (lengthy) but very informative and put together well. Nice summary Bazz. Now….what the heck did you do to get banned?

    #54421

    1shybastid
    Participant

    Romm? Making a Joke about “cheaters” being made into good friends,while you try to make valid gaming points…Diluted your Valid gaming points.
    I have enuff trouble being a good player.
    Im not.
    Im handsome tho.
    Thats not enough in this game tho.
    I dont mind losing fair and sqaure.
    I dont mind a whisper from a fellow player once in a while to ‘SMACK” someone.
    Are they an admin? Actually most are not.
    Most Admins are Admins cause they have a history with the game.And can shoot.
    I dont like jokes about “engaging” cheaters,or that Admins might be the culprits.
    I find it offensive. I think I got the joke tho.

    #54422

    Chopper
    Participant

    I’m one of the admins you asked to adjust the time…..I didn’t do it….NOT because I don’t know how. Because I DIDN’T want too.

    Don’t bust my balls like that. [-X

    #54423

    Thrax
    Participant

    The purpose of deputy admins is for management of issues, not total
    alteration of server settings. Only after a unified agreement will they
    do any changes to control factors.

    Shortening shot time would only assist those with the hacked advantage,
    since they don’t need thinking time to lay that pre-aiming line over a target.

    As i am not a registered admin of gavin’s own servers, i am not privy to
    thier personal discussions. Neither do i wish to be.
    Possibly, in the near future when Gavin decides to add mod-servers
    to his own list, then I’ll opt to be part of thier management, but only
    if it’s required.

    Currently, Apoc is not altered to remove the pre-aiming hack advantage. Only
    those that i manage personally are safe from that perticular insult. When
    there are other forms made, we’ll adapt to them as we find them.

    #54424

    parasti
    Participant

    I pretty much agree with everything Rommel said, but I think the timer argument is full of shit. If you know what a computer is, you probably know that they are pretty good at doing certain things much faster than a human brain. A typical aimbot is likely to work along the lines of “select a target, hit space, go make some coffee or whatever for the remaining 37 out of 40 seconds”, my point being that the time it takes to use an aimbot would be much shorter than any time spent actually aiming. Aimbots are the only form of cheating of major relevance and a short timer doesn’t prevent it.

    #54425

    apache64d
    Participant

    Again..so untrue post Rommel…..

    Point 1 – We have admins that don’t respect the rules. – Public Record :
    Admins that use their standing to encourage ganging up on players for saying no to rules games or for not playing the way the admin tells them to play are not being respectful of the server rules. You can find sufficient proof of this occuring in both, the forums and the game logs.

    I did not accuse anyone of breaking rules.

    Ganging up for “no to rules game”? We basicly letting know to new players that they have the right to NOT agree to “rules game”. AND don’t forget: the main and the beginners are NONE-rules/mod servers (also the team server..). That the base of the server=free shooting, free weapons. I never seen or heard any admin ganging up for that….false accusation. U do accuse here.

    Point 2 – We have admins that appear to be using assisted methods. – Public Record :
    Kill Ratios – A high kill ratio combined with requiring the full time to shoot makes a player appear suspicious to the admins. There are admins that meet this standard. Assisted shooting, although supposedly frowned upon, is not considered cheating, according to my understanding of what was decided by the admins.

    To the best of my knowledge, there is no way that a player can tell the difference between assisted shooting and cheating. This makes it imperative that players never publicly accuse anyone of “cheating.”

    What assisted methodes? counting squares? what metods? if u don’t cheating then I got get that… Also no admin is counting squares.
    We just played mannnnnnny games and.. well u know…we got SOME kind of skills. Good skills.
    False statments again.

    Not Every player with high skills is suspicious. (well.maybe for Legion he is..). If a new player was scoring 5 shots in arrow round after rounds or move after move and with force 3-4-5 and difficult shots..then the player is marked as suspicious.
    I usualy when get a complain I try to see is that player (got high skills and unfamiliar names) is a vetern and just hiding his known id. It is usualy like that and u also can see that he is not cheating.
    An admins can see if a player is cheating and also a vetern player can see, because of the big amount of time he spent in the on-line game.
    I can tell u that no vetern player will intentualy say “hey he cheats” to get that player banned. Every complain about cheating (and about all) is being checked carefuly.

    I have not accussed anyone of cheating.

    What then? what r u saying in this part??? I don’t get it…

    Point 3 – We have admins that don’t know how to set up and run a server. – Not Public Record :
    I can not divulge much on this without upsetting Big Bear, but there are posts (not from him) that substantiate this claim. People that can’t set up and operate a server can’t be expected to make changes to the set up.

    Yes, some of us do not know how to setup a server… so what?
    Setting up a server was not one of the “requierments” for the admin “job”.
    It is not related…
    This is not a tecnical forum as I recall.
    Some of us(or even most of us) DO KNOW how to make changes to the setup!
    Again..false statment and poor pickup of info by u, rommel.

    Point 4 – Don’t expect any help from them and you won’t be dissapointed.

    It would be foolish to expect help from anyone that is either unwilling or unable to help. This seems self explanatory.

    Rational :

    When questioned recently (more than once) on my thoughts about whether certain players were cheating, I refused to register a complaint with the admins that asked. My standard answer is, “It doesn’t matter, I’m still able to kill them.” Then if pressed further, “No one cares and I’m not complaining.” Hopefully they still recall these conversations.

    If u refused to make a complain then..what do u want from us? how can we help, act and deal with it if don’t even wanna complain?!
    Again..accusing admins for no-responsibillity but being none-responsible himself.
    I think I made my point and the stuff u wrote after that quote are answered in my lines.
    The new player is not frustrated. You are.
    Your post is not just distasteful but mainly and strongly UNTRUE or disinformative. In addition to insulting. As u saw also offensive to some.

    In light of the recent flurry of amazing shooting and the whisper messages from the admins, I have asked some of them to reset the shot timer on the main server to 20 seconds for a single game. Some have said that they don’t know how or that they can’t do that but none have complied.

    If u (as a one person) ask to reset the shot timer to 20 secs the we should just say right away “ok” and reset it? No.
    If we hear that few number of players are askin it and are talking to us about THEN we will start atcion that can finish with resetting the shot timer…
    Anyway, Rommel not every1 in here can aim in 20 secs (don’t forget talking about young kids or new players) like u. The time setting now was chosen as are reasonable time for a player to aim. A standart player. Fighting the hack is not about setting the timer to 20 or 10 or 5 secs. A setting like that will EVEN MORE scare ppl away from here. The game as u know is not just for veterns/high skills/fast typing ppl.
    Yes gavin told as we can make some changes on our own without him.
    BUT this kind of a change is not like any other change. Or a small change.

    Well, forgive me but I will not reply to more of your quotes. I think I made my point clear and said everytihg I HAD to say.

    #54426

    pastor of muppets
    Participant

    The way I understnad Roms post is not that the shorter timer will “stop the hack” it will give less time to the people who use a shoe string, protractor, ruler, or whatever else might be in use to assist a player in aiming. These methods are not against the rules and he (from what I understand) is not asking this setting to be permanant he was only asking a temporary change be made so that these methods could not be used.

    #54427

    Rommel
    Participant

    Hi bazzz:

    You wouldn’t believe how long the last post took me to compose but this one took 7 hours. Thus, no one gets any sympathy from me for the few minutes required to read any of them. However, I do feel the need to say thank you for the synopsis and the kind words. Although you did a very nice job, it wasn’t entirely correct.

    @bazzz wrote:

    Nice post rom, reminds me of the good old times 😉

    Point 1&2 are about past events where players had some difficulties with admins, something that cannot be avoided, but i guess there is a point to be made how things could be changed for the better(altough i dont know what is done out of public sight it has seemed not to work all the time)
    Im not too sure beyond that if there is much relevance,and people have moved on(i could be wrong)

    Points 1 & 2 were regarding events that I have observed recently.

    NOTE to the NEW PLAYERS: A flashing tank on the plan map, indicates a player that has not locked in their shot. A player that regulary takes excessive time to fire and seems to be making unbelievable shots, could be using an assisted shooting method. Watch for these players and play them as super bots. They are very dangerous opponents and you must eliminate them immediately if you are given the chance. Never truce with these scurvy dogs. All they deserve is your scorn and a quick death.

    @bazzz wrote:

    Point 3- There may be admins who have less technical knowledge than some players, but i guess if an admin hasnt got the technical knowledge that doesnt exclude him from being usefull in other tasks(maybe i dont understand what is expected from a voluntaity position) and one could try to find an admin with the relevant knowledge, im sure they are around.

    I agree entirely and am very thankful to everyone that took a position for the purpose of cleaning up and promoting the game. However, people that can’t set up and maintain a server should be called activity monitors or something more befitting their level of understanding and expertise, not Server Administrators.

    @bazzz wrote:

    Point 4-Yes the only remedy for dissapointment is not to have any expectations,but to make this point about “them” is unneccesary.

    Point 4 was in reference to the admins noted in points 1-3, it was not inclusive of all. Those that have respect for the rules, pride in themselves and an understanding of the code are the ones that will be the most helpful in trying to curtail the assisted shooting, should that become a goal.

    The less experienced (new players) suffer the most from assisted shooters because they are unaware. These are the players the game depends upon for it’s continued survival. Trying to hide this activity from them instead of trying to implement some valid control measures does not seem logical.

    Although I kind of like the extra challange presented by some of those I suspect of assisted shooting, good honest shooters should present an overall challange comparable to the meanest of my bots.

    Outer seems to have a good understanding of the assisted shooting issues and I think he knows that I’m not trying to stage a protest, destroy the game, drive everyone away, or any of the other things that I have been accused of seeking to accomplish. It is my sincere hope that, in time, he, and others like him, will be able to get some code changes implemented to help promote honest shooting over assisted shooting.

    An advanced server may be the best way to do this to prevent injuring anyones false pride by exposing them as a fraud.

    Banning is the least desirable option available as it is the least effective and most disruptive of all the things that can be done. This is what I foresaw coming as a result of this thread although it never occurred to me that I would be the first to be banned. Life is funny like that sometimes.

    Best wishes to you all through the holiday season and a special THANK YOU to Outer for his help and especially for his understanding of the issues. Just before starting this post, I learned that he had re-instated me and as you might imagine, I have some catching up to do.

    I must go destroy the world now. Krieg ohne Hass.

    Sincerely,

    Generalfeldmarschall Erwin J. E. Rommel

    P.S. Thanks to the rest of you (like POM) that understood. I’ve got to go play now.

    #54428

    Rommel
    Participant

    Oooops, I guess I jumped the gun … I AM NOT REINSTATED.

    Perhaps things like this are something that only Gavin can undo. It seems that I remember something like that being written somewhere long ago.

    It prevents things like this from escaping his attention.

    So, perhaps I’ll see some of you soon, perhaps not.

    I must go watch a movie now. Movies without commercials

    Sincerely,

    Generalfeldmarschall Erwin J. E. Rommel

    #54429

    Outer
    Participant

    For the assisted shooting the are already developments made into the game. Maybe newcomers and also some of you not know that there was a grid on previous versions, back on v39 and 40. The grid was a simple slice of the map making it look like squares. This granted some, after sorting some numbers the ability to have a good first shot approach. This assisted method i must say required a good amount of time to finish, but the end result was clearly outstanding. Hearing from the community, admins and devs made proper changes and removed the grid of the game, thus ending this assisted method.

    Now after the example i want to state there are other methods that are impossible to detect just by coding. I wont reveal this methods as some may try to do them at home, [-X . But fighting those is what experienced players as admins can do and detect. To use our knowledge and experience to detect this kind of things.

    Regarding aimbots, they can be detected and fought by code but that is just exhausting for developers as it becomes a game of the cat and the mouse. We change something they change also. More over remember this is open source so it is a freaking impossible task to stop it!! As i said we must live with it, but with the help of honest players i say give feedback to admins about suspicious activities and let admins do what they have to do.

    Sleepy roght now so i will finish now.

    Regards

    Outer

    #54430

    Chopper
    Participant

    Romme…”assisted shooting”….is that what all this is about? #-o

    When you asked me on at least two occasions to adjust the timer…in indirect asides (one I took as a taunt) I didn’t think there were any assists going on and I try to be aware of that stuff.

    I took it as you wanted a faster game…..which it would be if you and others (noobs that think its funny) you encourage didn’t use DIRT.

    I don’t want to open that can of worms here….but man….is it really worth agitating the whole crew? You are a mystery to me man….

    #54431

    Rommel
    Participant

    Dear Admins:

    As many of you, I am anxiously awaiting the release of version 42.

    Having made a few inquiries about the changes we could expect to be made to the server set ups, it appears that there is no ongoing discussion amoung you to make any changes.

    I ask you all, as a group :

    Do you prefer things the way they are currently structured?

    Thank you in advance for not responding unless you speak for the group.

    Sincerely,

    Rommel

    #54432

    Laptops Daddy
    Participant

    @rommel wrote:

    Thank you in advance for not responding unless you speak for the group.

    youre welcome.

    ive missed all these cheating posts. exciting. i read almost some of it.

    shot timers:

    rommel, i dont think a reduced shot timer will help. ‘assisted shooting’ is cheating. anyone who thinks otherwise is reading the wrong set of rules. but a reduced shot timer isnt guaranteed to help. im sure there are lots of ways people could adapt a cheating method to reverse any disadvantage a stupidly short timer might give.

    very important point here: cheating is only a concern with online play. people only play online because they like to play against other humans*.

    what we need is a friendly relaxed atmosphere, with a culture of fairplay. most of your suggestions (and methods in game), encourage the opposite. (sorry but true)

    *not including beginner aif stats whores, who dont count

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 58 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.